Starmer's speach this morning

MaizieD

Germanshepherdsmum

Maizie, my ex mil worked for the NHS for years. I heard plenty of horror stories but of course it’s anecdotal. I also remember a series on tv a few years ago in which the chef James Martin tried to get NHS cooks to use pre-prepared fresh veg to make nutritious meals more cheaply than using the processed stuff they bought. Cheaper and patients enjoyed the food but they fell back into their old ways after he left. It’s what I refer to as ‘local government mentality’ after my years in the public sector; the private sector needs to make a profit and therefore efficiency and lack of waste are high up the list of priorities.

As I feared. Anecdotal.

I also remember a series on tv a few years ago in which the chef James Martin tried to get NHS cooks to use pre-prepared fresh veg

Of course, all NHS catering is outsourced to private providers now, isn't it? This tells me something about private sector 'efficiency and need to make a profit', not about NHS wastefulness.

When I working in NHS in house catering in the 1970s all our meat, fish and vegetables were fresh and purchased from local providers. That was just before Thatcher set about privatising 'hotel services'.

You overlook past academic studies organisational behaviour, Maizie.

It is well known that the bigger an organisation gets, the more "job crafting" happens. This can work to the advantage of the organisation but it can also mean an unwillingness to change from what gives you comfort in your job. I was once told that people stop seeing themselves as working for the organisation once the workforce gets over about 35. This wasn't an academic but someone who built and successfully ran several companies. It isn't the end of the world but they start seeing themselves as working for the Accounts Department, Factory 1, or however they define what they are doing.

Job crafting will make some people's job easier, some of it will be what the organisation needs - but not all. I think we do have to face the need for change and, I would guess, making smaller clinics, specialist hospitals, etc. We do have to respond to the fact that we are humans and that we work better than machines if that is taken into consideration.

MaizieD

^I worded my 11:47:02 post so carefully because I do not believe everyone is getting what they need under our NHS/private dental system.^

That's assuming, DaisyAnne that one can even get NHS treatment from a dentist. There are no dentists in our area willing to take on NHS patients.

True. That makes a strong point about the need for additional NHS doctors, etc. However, dentistry is so clearly divided by the ability to pay that it is a clear example of what could happen, as I said above, under a health system that does not make the same health care possible for all. The next step from that, one I think some on the right would find acceptable, is that you may be able to pay less into the NHS if you have private insurance. Currently even when people have private insurance, we all have to pay what is deemed a fair charge for having an NHS system for all. That is fundamental, in my view.

I don't think private practices are necessarily the problem (although, I don't know enough to know they aren't). Setting out a list of what is and what isn't free, in the way the government have done in dentistry, immediately stops equality of opportunity.

Starmer have expelled 60+ Jews from his party those who support Palestine calling them anti Semitic. Starmer doesn’t think Israel is an apartheid state. Starmer has expelled more Jews than any other party leader. Isn’t he anti Semitic.

Germanshepherdsmum

*Maizie*, my ex mil worked for the NHS for years. I heard plenty of horror stories but of course it’s anecdotal. I also remember a series on tv a few years ago in which the chef James Martin tried to get NHS cooks to use pre-prepared fresh veg to make nutritious meals more cheaply than using the processed stuff they bought. Cheaper and patients enjoyed the food but they fell back into their old ways after he left. It’s what I refer to as ‘local government mentality’ after my years in the public sector; the private sector needs to make a profit and therefore efficiency and lack of waste are high up the list of priorities.

As I feared. Anecdotal.

I also remember a series on tv a few years ago in which the chef James Martin tried to get NHS cooks to use pre-prepared fresh veg

Of course, all NHS catering is outsourced to private providers now, isn't it? This tells me something about private sector 'efficiency and need to make a profit', not about NHS wastefulness.

When I working in NHS in house catering in the 1970s all our meat, fish and vegetables were fresh and purchased from local providers. That was just before Thatcher set about privatising 'hotel services'.

I worded my 11:47:02 post so carefully because I do not believe everyone is getting what they need under our NHS/private dental system.

That's assuming, DaisyAnne that one can even get NHS treatment from a dentist. There are no dentists in our area willing to take on NHS patients.

Maizie, my ex mil worked for the NHS for years. I heard plenty of horror stories but of course it’s anecdotal. I also remember a series on tv a few years ago in which the chef James Martin tried to get NHS cooks to use pre-prepared fresh veg to make nutritious meals more cheaply than using the processed stuff they bought. Cheaper and patients enjoyed the food but they fell back into their old ways after he left. It’s what I refer to as ‘local government mentality’ after my years in the public sector; the private sector needs to make a profit and therefore efficiency and lack of waste are high up the list of priorities.

Germanshepherdsmum

My annual asthma review has been privatised, as have my husband’s diabetic eye checks - but both free. Part provision by private companies doesn’t necessarily equal charges to users but may be more efficient use of funds. The NHS is notoriously wasteful.

That's interesting GSM. As long as everyone is still getting that service free when they need it I am not sure that going to a private provider is necessarily a "bad" thing. I don't think I know enough about how it affects the NHS overall, but, as always, I would be willing to listen to reasoned 'argument' on this.

I worded my 11:47:02 post so carefully because I do not believe everyone is getting what they need under our NHS/private dental system. Some people can get some treatment free (completely) under the National Health Low Income Scheme. What they can get, however, is in no way comparable to need and certainly not to what is available that our society feels it needs for mental health reasons, etc. It has been pared back to the bone - or, I should say, gum. This makes it very much a two-tier system and I would not want to see our health system go the same way.

The NHS is notoriously wasteful.

So people keep on saying.

Can you point me to any good empirical (i.e not anecdotal) research which confirms this statement?

My annual asthma review has been privatised, as have my husband’s diabetic eye checks - but both free. Part provision by private companies doesn’t necessarily equal charges to users but may be more efficient use of funds. The NHS is notoriously wasteful.

Germanshepherdsmum

We have probably reached the stage where some privatisation of medical services is inevitable. We have an increasingly elderly population, with all the demands that places on the system. More obesity, fewer people taking responsibility for their wellbeing. We have fewer people registered with GPs who have little idea how to manage even minor accidents and illnesses so turn up at A and E. Immigration places further stresses on the system. The population of this country is very different to that of 1948.

I would certainly like to think that a government would look at everything available while keeping the "free at the point on need" pledge.

That means the same health care available to all - not a two-tier system. That would be the same health care as is possible under our public or private systems.

Outside that, both how it is run and funded must be up for discussion.

Glorianny

Since when was it far left to expect a little honesty from a politician?

Honesty isn’t telling you what you want to hear Glorianny. Honesty is making a realistic assessment of the arrangement that will help clear the horrendous backlog we currently have and where there is no option compromising your principles to get the best outcome for the most people in the short and potentially medium term.

Germanshepherdsmum

Public/private partnership - remember PFI, still being paid off? I had developer clients who were desperate to get on that bandwagon.

Just read this. You do realise Gsm that PFI was only brought in because of the appalling neglect the Tories had inflicted on public buildings in health and education. There was a desperate need to do something and a belief that local authorities couldn't meet the cost. So yes it was a mistake. But without it many of us would still have been teaching with buckets around the classroom.
Of course history is now repeating itself isn't it??

I did mean exacerbated! I have issues with processing

It has been exasperated by the pandemic

I'm not trying to be nit picky or anything, but I've seen this quite often recently. I 'think' the word you meant is 'exacerbated' (made considerably worse)

If it was damned autocorrect, I apologise for mentioning it..

Since when was it far left to expect a little honesty from a politician?

I think it's unfair to say people turn up at A&E. We cannot get into our GP service. This year two of my children (one at home) have been involved in accidents and I have called my GP surgery and been told to go to A&E as they would not examine them. One I called 111 who did a video consult and sent us to A&E anyway and the other 111 suggested monitoring hourly and going to A&E if any deterioration. Social worker rang GP service the following day and they agreed to an appointment a few days later (which was too late imo but it didn't necessitate A&E.

That is just my experience in the last two months and I realise some of the problems are regional. I have friends who work in the health and one of my immediate family is a Dr in the NHS and they are seeing conditions and especially specific cancers that they haven't seen for twenty years and all of them say they think this is because people cannot access their GP service. It has been exasperated by the pandemic but they all feel the primary cause of this escalation is lack of access to the GP service

Glorianny

If Blair had stood with the declared intention that he would demolish the NHS he would probably never have been elected. In fact he never intended to do so. He wasn't far left was he?
Now we have a Labour leader who won't commit to stopping privatisation of the NHS, even though it is patently obvious that all privatisation does is put public money into private pockets, and he's considered centrist as well!!!
The concept of what is centrist has drifted so far to the right that it's like we've fallen down the rabbit hole
In the words of Alice "Curiouser and curiouser"

I was there. Most NHS staff would agree. Blair was one of the best things that happened to the NHS, finances, service delivery and standards were at an all time high when Labour left office in 2010. A few mistakes were made of course, particularly with PFI - but every government makes mistakes. It’s what has happened since that has caused the problems.

DaisyAnne

Glorianny Fri 03-Mar-23 10:16:15

And here is another who would rather have the far-right than the elected leader of the Labour Party. Because that's your choice.

I'd rather have a Labour party leader who was capable of keeping at leeast one promise or abiding by one policy. Starmer shifts depending on which way the wind is blowing (or who he thinks is going to give him most power). Did you miss hiis past statements and positions? Why would someone who couldn't keep his word to a party keep his word to the country? He'd probably sell his own grandmother if he thought it would benefit him.

Germanshepherdsmum

We have probably reached the stage where some privatisation of medical services is inevitable. We have an increasingly elderly population, with all the demands that places on the system. More obesity, fewer people taking responsibility for their wellbeing. We have fewer people registered with GPs who have little idea how to manage even minor accidents and illnesses so turn up at A and E. Immigration places further stresses on the system. The population of this country is very different to that of 1948.

You are making the usual mistake of forgetting that the NHS is a major player in the domestic economy and much of the public money 'invested' in it returns to the Treasury via taxation.

Using private providers is far more akin to pouring money into a black hole than is public investment when the profits of the private providers go abroad or into the hands of shareholders who tend not to spend into the domestic economy.

The country is not a household. It doesn't have to cut it's clothes according to its cloth because it actually makes its own cloth...

Commissioning means that many services, including diagnostic tests for diabetic retinopathy, are already provided by private companies (under the NHS logo).

We have probably reached the stage where some privatisation of medical services is inevitable. We have an increasingly elderly population, with all the demands that places on the system. More obesity, fewer people taking responsibility for their wellbeing. We have fewer people registered with GPs who have little idea how to manage even minor accidents and illnesses so turn up at A and E. Immigration places further stresses on the system. The population of this country is very different to that of 1948.

Glorianny Fri 03-Mar-23 10:16:15

And here is another who would rather have the far-right than the elected leader of the Labour Party. Because that's your choice.

If Blair had stood with the declared intention that he would demolish the NHS he would probably never have been elected. In fact he never intended to do so. He wasn't far left was he?
Now we have a Labour leader who won't commit to stopping privatisation of the NHS, even though it is patently obvious that all privatisation does is put public money into private pockets, and he's considered centrist as well!!!
The concept of what is centrist has drifted so far to the right that it's like we've fallen down the rabbit hole
In the words of Alice "Curiouser and curiouser"

At the extremes of either left or right politics, we end up in a "dictatorship" zone.

The farthest right wants such extreme freedom of the individual that political murder becomes not only possible but acceptable. The farthest left wants such extreme control by the state of the individual that here political murder also becomes not only possible but acceptable.

Let's hope those with views that are a little more flexible can save us from such a fate.

I can see why you ask Whitewave. Grany has, if we judge from her posts, gone so far to the left she has met up with the far right and is supporting them rather than a left-of-centre Labour Party.

I suppose, when you look at it, that's what happened in the in/out vote.