Starmer's speach this morning

I’m not casting aspersions, I know you were trisher, it shines out of all your posts. I’m not sure why that would be an aspersion anyway?
In terms of your position, I wasn’t asking who you would vote for at the next election, that was the question you answered which Whitewavemark2 asked, my question was about your continued membership of a party whose values you no longer share, which isn’t the same thing. My exact words were ‘Will you stay or will you go’? I left Labour when Corbyn was elected because I couldn’t live with it, I wondered if you would be doing the same now as you hold Starmer and presumably his shadow cabinet in such disdain,

‘Better strategy’ = far left? I voted for Blair btw. And would probably do so again.

Iam64

Seriously, you expect everyone to see z as Blair as no different to Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss or Sunak?
Give over

Gosh are you incapable of understanding complicated ideas?
Blair brought hope and had commitment. Blair changed things when he was in power. But the things he did were tinkering with the structures. He did nothing substantial.
He didn't change the law on council house building
He did nothing about the privatisation of the railways, even though the East coast line franchise was not functioning and it could have been taken back into public ownership.
Of course none of this was thought to be necessary and I'm not criticising Blair purely because he didn't do things. I'm using his mistakes to try and develop a better strategy for the next Labour government. Because those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

I’m not so down hearted. I live in hope that the majority will suppprt a good labour government which Is likely under current leadership

Possibly no one is rushing to tell me how I needn't worry and that Labour will make a difference and leave a legacy because they know quite well that what I say is true. That 5 or10 years from now we will have had a brief respite with lukewarm Labour policies improving things a little, the Tories will have regrouped and will come back to power, because the parties will be seen as much the same and the poor and underprivileged will be even poorer.

Seriously, you expect everyone to see z as Blair as no different to Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss or Sunak?
Give over

Casdon

Glorianny

I love the way people keep telling me about Blair and Corbyn, but say little about Starmer, possibly because my criticism is factual and his behaviour isn't defendable.

We’ve rehearsed your views about Starmer about fifty times when you were trisher and since though Glorianny, I can only speak for myself but I’m bored of hearing the same old, same old distorted left perception of him, I just can’t be bothered to rise to that particular bait any more.
On a similar line, you’ve never responded to any queries about what you personally are going to do now you are so polarised from the party direction?

Who is trisher?
If you look at page 3 of this thread Casdon you will find my views carefully stated in a reply to a question asked politely by Whitewavemark2
I do tend to respond to those who ask me direct questions politely instead of making assumptions and casting aspersions.

I didn’t realise Glorianny was trisher. It figures.

Glorianny

I love the way people keep telling me about Blair and Corbyn, but say little about Starmer, possibly because my criticism is factual and his behaviour isn't defendable.

We’ve rehearsed your views about Starmer about fifty times when you were trisher and since though Glorianny, I can only speak for myself but I’m bored of hearing the same old, same old distorted left perception of him, I just can’t be bothered to rise to that particular bait any more.
On a similar line, you’ve never responded to any queries about what you personally are going to do now you are so polarised from the party direction?

Paraphrasing what you say then Glorianny, you want a left wing agenda for the next government. However, that’s not what most people, particularly floating voters, will vote Labour for, they will vote for change, yes, more open and transparent government, yes, but a left wing agenda - no. The point comes when you have to accept that what you want isn’t what the majority want, or are voting for - if Labour are elected and start to do things which they haven’t declared in advance are their priorities, you can’t blame people if they don’t support them at the election after that, can you?

I love the way people keep telling me about Blair and Corbyn, but say little about Starmer, possibly because my criticism is factual and his behaviour isn't defendable.

Iam64

Honestly Glory, can you find anything positive to say? If not, can you at least blame 12 years of Tory misrule rather than another criticism that Blair is to be blamed for not setting Surestart in stone, can you really believe this lot wouldn’t have found ways to destroy it.
They don’t care. The imperfect Labour Party and its imperfect leader do care. St Jeremy wasnt perfect. Getting the tories out gas to be more important than finding fault with the air Starmer and his cabinet breathe

I have never said Corbyn was perfect. Of course Tory misrule worsened things. Sadly I believed in Blair and thought we were onto a game changer for society, unfortunately we weren't. There is likely to be a large Labour majority in the next GE I just want that majority to be used and to remain in power. Blair promised much but by the end was seen as little different to the Tories. The numbers of people voting fell significantly because of that. I don't want to see that happen again. I want a Labour government that will do things differently and leave a legacy, one that people will continue to vote for even when the Tories recover, because they are seen to be different and better.

Honestly Glory, can you find anything positive to say? If not, can you at least blame 12 years of Tory misrule rather than another criticism that Blair is to be blamed for not setting Surestart in stone, can you really believe this lot wouldn’t have found ways to destroy it.
They don’t care. The imperfect Labour Party and its imperfect leader do care. St Jeremy wasnt perfect. Getting the tories out gas to be more important than finding fault with the air Starmer and his cabinet breathe

Galaxy

Ok the reason I have a little agreement with you on Starmer is that I think he needs to be a little braver in the mould of Blair I am afraid. I think Blair was driven by a belief system ( it might not be yours but it was a very clear belief system nonetheless) I think Starmer tries to compromise or not be clear on issues at times and that only gets you so far. I am a pragmatist so I dont mind at all someone 'playing the game' so to speak, I think the pledges are hopefully a part of that greater clarity.

Oh I entirely agree with you about Blair. I'm not sure about compromise as far as Starmer is concerned I think it is difficult to reconcile his obvious disregard for his promises and his shifts in policy. You might call it compromise, I'm afraid I look on it as downright deceit. Served as Brexit Secretary under Corbyn, promised to renationalise everything and unite the party when he stood as leader in 2020. Reneged on that in 2022. Ignored Islington North LP and has said Corbyn can't stand. I think if he feels a slight breeze (never mind a strong wind) he changes direction.
He talks about "sticking plaster politics" I'm afraid he would spend hours asking if a sticking plaster was needed, find out who was in favour or against, then go with those he thinks have the most influence.

Galaxy

Sorry that was directed at Glorianny, I dont want to get in the middle of a fight between Daisy and Maizie

I'm not fighting Galaxy. I don't feel the need.

I’m on my mobile so can’t give a ref, but a quick google will find recent very strong +++ proposals on social housing.

But will that be put out by Daily Wail et al? No. What you might find are some nimbys objecting to it.

Sorry that was directed at Glorianny, I dont want to get in the middle of a fight between Daisy and Maizie

Ok the reason I have a little agreement with you on Starmer is that I think he needs to be a little braver in the mould of Blair I am afraid. I think Blair was driven by a belief system ( it might not be yours but it was a very clear belief system nonetheless) I think Starmer tries to compromise or not be clear on issues at times and that only gets you so far. I am a pragmatist so I dont mind at all someone 'playing the game' so to speak, I think the pledges are hopefully a part of that greater clarity.

grr. I should stop doing this when I am busy. It should have read:

You really do need to find a way to live with the fact that people will often not share your opinion.

You really do need to find a way to live with the fact that people will often not agree that you are right share your opinion.

MaizieD

^Possibly. As I think I have brought it in on several occasions which you obviously haven't bothered to read I do wonder if there is any point.^

Refresh my senior memory, then DaisyAnne

(Perhaps you could point me to a relevant past post?)

Why do you need me to tell you Maizie. What will you gain by me setting out what I believe are the basic tenets of socialism and communism? You presumably have a definition of both that you believe to be true. I assume you are also aware of the difference between them. If you don't and are not, I would have to conclude that you have never felt the need to know. So why the need to harass me over this?

You really do need to find a way to live with the fact that people will often not agree that you are right. Or is this the onset of seniority too?

I have never said the Blair government didn't do good. I have said there is little in the way of a lasting legacy and things are worse now than before Blair. And the same could happen again.

Casdon

I still don’t get your point Glorianny. The longer a government is in power the more ability it has to make changes. We have a Labour Government and are building council houses in Wales, and we still have Flying Start and Communities First. That is the long term ambition, not a quick fix. Nobody is denying that Blair and Brown made some mistakes, but the last Labour Government overall was a huge power for good. You seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the Tories have been in power for so long and much has been dismantled in England.
I think where you struggle is tempering your desire for change with a degree of realism about how complex it is to change systems and laws, a five year term is just not going to be long enough to get the country back on an even keel, put right the greatest horrors caused by this government and start huge new initiatives.

But a commitment to doing something would at least be a start.
Building council houses would be a great example. Can you or anyone tell me Starmer's stance on this?

I didn't say Surestart was tinkering I said introducing things which are easily over turned is tinkering. Of course there are beliefs behind Surestart. The way it was introduced was so wrong. The US Head Start programme on which it was based has been going since 1965. It has behind it legislation which makes it permanent, someting Blair never did.

So what I am arguing (for all those who think I am in some way slagging off Starmer for no reason) is that unless a labour government has behind it some real policies that will change things and be difficult to eradicate easily, what you will effectively get is 5-10 years of some improvement (as with Blair) but then a slip back to worse things.

I don't think that anything is 'difficult to eradicate easily' if the the party in power is determined to change it and has a determined leader. Look at the way that Thatcher destroyed the post war consensus. And embedded right wing ideologies as 'truths'.