Sunak has used a lot of Political Credit on sorting out the Northern Ireland Protocol deal ...

“So how does that explain the majority of over 65s voting Leave?”

It doesn’t, it’s probably due to more conservative attitudes as we get older, but that obviously apply to the majority of GN users.

Urmstongran

Please do not put words in my mouth Fleurpepper! I think ‘traitors’ is an unnecessarily inflammatory term. I just said they’d ‘bailed’. Or planned to. My vote could not possibly square the circle for every retiree’s choices. I based MY vote for MY country. And I’d do it again given the chance.

I only holiday in Europe and chose to buy a holiday home there.
Big difference.

Siope I’m not ignoring you but I’m just tired and about to turn to my bed soon. I will reply to your post tomorrow if I may?

Goodnight all.

'bailed'is very inflammatory. Those people did not 'bail' - they worked hard, all their lives, contibuting to the country in so many ways, paying taxes, etc. Many of those who decided to retire abroad, after those useful lives of service, did not 'bail', they did not turn their back on their country, because they don't love it. For many, it was for a change, a last adventure, more sunshine- and as said, for a house they could afford, and could have never afforded in the UK. For many houses bought a long time ago, and that they have spent years and years and all their savings to renovate, as well as a ot of elbow grease and sweat, to retire to. And now find that it is just not so easy than it was.

Mamie, please remind me, can retirees now benefit from S1?

Katie59

Casdon

Add in quite a lot of ‘the golden glow of the past’ syndrome.

Nothing about “golden glow” it is a fact that young families are having a much tougher time than we had, whatever their income level.

So how does that explain the majority of over 65s voting Leave?

Katie59

Casdon

Add in quite a lot of ‘the golden glow of the past’ syndrome.

Nothing about “golden glow” it is a fact that young families are having a much tougher time than we had, whatever their income level.

I don’t think you understood my point Katie59. I meant those who voted for Brexit did so because they had an inaccurate, rosy memory of how things ‘used to be’.

Casdon

Add in quite a lot of ‘the golden glow of the past’ syndrome.

Nothing about “golden glow” it is a fact that young families are having a much tougher time than we had, whatever their income level.

Maisie

“What relevance is that to the fact that more older people voted Leave than voted Remain?”

Did you not see that it was in response to the comment about education, I think we had a better education than present.

Add in quite a lot of ‘the golden glow of the past’ syndrome.

Katie59

Joseanne

You'd think that if older people were aware that they had been short changed on education and opportunities in comparison in their own youth, they would have automatically voted to remain in the EU for their offspring.
Was it to safeguard their own pensions or something?

Personally I think we had a better more realistic education, the high pressure education today where university is the aim, suits the top 25%, which means that there are a lot more that are disappointed, than previously. Their prospects are being inflated far beyond their realistic capabilities.

There no doubt that my generation has had a much better life than my children’s generation is having.

What relevance is that to the fact that more older people voted Leave than voted Remain?

Joseanne

You'd think that if older people were aware that they had been short changed on education and opportunities in comparison in their own youth, they would have automatically voted to remain in the EU for their offspring.
Was it to safeguard their own pensions or something?

I suspect that, because they never had access to those opportunities in their youth (and let's not forget that only 5% went to university, though other forms of tertiary education did exist) they just didn't appreciate how much they benefitted and were valued by those who did have access. Or it just didn't occur to them that it had any value.

And the Leave campaigns managed to whip up a fine bit of class warfare with Leave voters triumphantly putting one over those middle class toffs who wanted their children to go to foreign unis and be able to work in ski resorts in the winter...

Joseanne

You'd think that if older people were aware that they had been short changed on education and opportunities in comparison in their own youth, they would have automatically voted to remain in the EU for their offspring.
Was it to safeguard their own pensions or something?

Personally I think we had a better more realistic education, the high pressure education today where university is the aim, suits the top 25%, which means that there are a lot more that are disappointed, than previously. Their prospects are being inflated far beyond their realistic capabilities.

There no doubt that my generation has had a much better life than my children’s generation is having.

You'd think that if older people were aware that they had been short changed on education and opportunities in comparison in their own youth, they would have automatically voted to remain in the EU for their offspring.
Was it to safeguard their own pensions or something?

Mamie

Joseanne

I might be incorrect, but wasn't it mainly retirees who voted to leave, to the tune of around two thirds? Maybe Mamie anyone over 65 shouldn't have been allowed to vote at all because it doesn't seem they were thinking about their grandchildren's future, (or about the fate of their peers who wished to retire abroad).

Yes the data shows that Brexit voting was higher in older people, but the greater factor was a lower level of further or higher education. This will partly be the case because of lower provision in their youth.
Anecdotally I do know of people who supported Brexit, but asked their grandchildren what they wanted and then vored remain.

Oh, goodness, Mamie!. Don't mention the statistical fact about educational levels of Leave voters It provokes howls of outrage and accusations of Remain voters calling them stupid.

Mind you, the very fact that they don't appear to be able to understand statistics says a great deal...

I have always suspected that xenophobia had a large part in the decision making process of those who voted Leave.

Joseanne

I might be incorrect, but wasn't it mainly retirees who voted to leave, to the tune of around two thirds? Maybe Mamie anyone over 65 shouldn't have been allowed to vote at all because it doesn't seem they were thinking about their grandchildren's future, (or about the fate of their peers who wished to retire abroad).

Yes the data shows that Brexit voting was higher in older people, but the greater factor was a lower level of further or higher education. This will partly be the case because of lower provision in their youth.
Anecdotally I do know of people who supported Brexit, but asked their grandchildren what they wanted and then vored remain.

I might be incorrect, but wasn't it mainly retirees who voted to leave, to the tune of around two thirds?

Certainly a large proportion of the over 60s voted Leave. I think that, being mostly retired and settled in life they really didn't consider the advantages that being in the EU offered to younger people who were still working or in education.

I still haven't got over the stunning selfishness of those who enjoyed all the advantages EU membership offered then denying them to the younger generations, and who can't even bring themselves to apologise now that Brexit, has predicted, has gone pear shaped.

I might be incorrect, but wasn't it mainly retirees who voted to leave, to the tune of around two thirds? Maybe Mamie anyone over 65 shouldn't have been allowed to vote at all because it doesn't seem they were thinking about their grandchildren's future, (or about the fate of their peers who wished to retire abroad).

Yes the destruction of the Erasmus scheme ( U.K. students being sent home before the end of their courses, U.K. universities loosing out on EU students and funding) was one of the ridiculous non-benefits of Brexit.My brothers nephew, a top physics student got a scholarship from his Italian university to study abroad. His English is excellent and he would have liked to study in the U.K. Because of Brexit he was unable to do this. He is now studying in the Netherlands, where he can use his English.

I would not necessarily have expected people who voted for Brexit to have considered potential retirees. I would, however, have expected them to think about their grandchildren's future and their right to move freely, live, study and work across European nations. Before anybody says "they can still do that" I would urge them to do some research into third country employment rules and the cost of university courses.

vegansrock

I wonder if those who believed the lies that nothing would change, we hold all the cards, the EU is about to collapse anyway, there is a queue of nations waiting to trade with us etc still believe those things or they just cling to the “ sovereignty ” mantra, which actually means nothing in practical terms, apart from we can make things worse - sewage on the beaches anyone?

That what they believed, if they still believe that there is no helping them and no point arguing.

I wonder if those who believed the lies that nothing would change, we hold all the cards, the EU is about to collapse anyway, there is a queue of nations waiting to trade with us etc still believe those things or they just cling to the “ sovereignty ” mantra, which actually means nothing in practical terms, apart from we can make things worse - sewage on the beaches anyone?

ug would you really vote for this again? Truly? Given everything that has happened and is happening?

I simply can’t get my head around that.

Please do not put words in my mouth Fleurpepper! I think ‘traitors’ is an unnecessarily inflammatory term. I just said they’d ‘bailed’. Or planned to. My vote could not possibly square the circle for every retiree’s choices. I based MY vote for MY country. And I’d do it again given the chance.

I only holiday in Europe and chose to buy a holiday home there.
Big difference.

Siope I’m not ignoring you but I’m just tired and about to turn to my bed soon. I will reply to your post tomorrow if I may?

Goodnight all.

Indeed Siope. Some of these people are not wealthy. they could never have bought a house in the UK- but coud buy a fixer-upper and many parts of France and the EU. And they did continue to work hard in the UK all their lives. The low value of Sterling many well mean that they no longer can afford to move, or do not fulfil the EU requirements and cannot easily prove that they will be 100% of any help in the EU at some point as they age. Lots of practical and financial issues now getting in the way.

Joseanne, fingers crossed! Good luck to you too.

Urmstongran

^But you did- for those who intended to go and live there, especially on retirement.^

Goodness Fleurpepper why on EARTH would I, when casting my vote in the referendum as a UK resident and intending to spend MY retirement living and paying taxes in the UK, give a stuff about retirees who intended to bail from OUR country to live in France?? It wouldn’t make sense! I voted Leave for OUR country, it’s laws and sovereignty. Those who intended to upsticks would not be of concern to me as I cast my vote. They would be intending to be French residents. ‘Vive la France!’ Bon chance. But not my circus. Sorry. I voted the way I did for the future of OUR country. The UK. Not for future residents of the Dordogne or

I’m going to try to answer this sensibly and politely.

Firstly, did you give any thought to how much money Brits retiring abroad save the country? I am (hopefully) moving, as did many Brits, to countries where healthcare is cheaper. Those countries recharge the NHS at that much cheaper rate, saving the UK a bomb. This is especially true for older people, as over-65 is when most people need the most healthcare. This, btw, is also why EU migrants don’t cost the NHS money).

Secondly, are you aware that there are a number of taxes which continue to be paid in the UK, regardless of where someone lives? All government pensions, for example; any income from rental property; potentially capital gains tax on property sales… Thus some emigrants, including retirees, will be supporting public services in the UK whilst not using them.

Thirdly, did you anticipate that Brexit would increase the number of highly-qualified, and generally highly paid, British nationals who moved to the EU, taking their taxes with them? An Oxford Uni study shows, in the first 5 years after the referendum, that migration from the UK to EU countries has increased by about 30% compared to pre-Brexit numbers. Britons living in other EU countries who decided to obtain EU member state passports as well as their UK ones had increased by more than 500% overall, and by 2,000% in Germany.

Fourthly, did you expect that so many EU citizens who were working in Britain would leave, again reducing the tax income of the UK, and decimating healthcare, social care, hospitality and agriculture, and, in the latter three instances, causing direct price rises for British residents?

Would I be correct in assuming you understood the financial (if not the social) and fiscal costs of migration trends which were pointed out repeatedly ahead of the vote, and felt that they were a price worth paying? And if so, a price worth paying for what direct and tangible benefits to the British economy, and British residents?