Sunak has used a lot of Political Credit on sorting out the Northern Ireland Protocol deal ...

I just thought some of you might like to see this. And didn't want to start a new thread.
Just one small example of how we in NI are treated differently.
Bodum wouldn't send my spare part. I asked why.
Answer

We do not currently accept orders for delivery to Northern Ireland. We will however be putting in place that service although it will be necessary for additional freight costs to be made to the customer.

So they sold me the cafetiere but won't send replacement parts. When they do, it will cost more.

Katie59

“For example, under the old rules we were having trains built abroad because EU companies (some it is suggested subsidised though that is technically against EU rules) came in with lower prices. The effect of this sort of loss of orders is destroying some industries and they can often not be rebuilt.”

Do we have any companies building railway locomotives these days, failure of successive governments seem to have abandoned them decades ago.

We do indeed Alsthom a French owned company built a lot of trains at Derby, several others build narrow gauge locomotives.

“For example, under the old rules we were having trains built abroad because EU companies (some it is suggested subsidised though that is technically against EU rules) came in with lower prices. The effect of this sort of loss of orders is destroying some industries and they can often not be rebuilt.”

Do we have any companies building railway locomotives these days, failure of successive governments seem to have abandoned them decades ago.

I think one major advantage will be that UK public projects will not have to be offered up to all EU counties for tender.

It worked the other way, too. Perhaps it says something about our industries if they failed to tender successfully for work in Europe...

It doesn't auger well for the future quality of British products if we have to resort to protectionism in order for them to obtain work...

MaizieD

^Despite the problems, mostly due to the lack of competent negotiation by May and Johnson, we still feel the same.^

So what do you think we have gained?

Interesting about your university graduates. My DD, a uni academic, was at a large academic conference on the day the referendum results were declared. She says that there were a lot of very long faces and shocked and upset people. Brexit has blocked access for UK researchers to a great many European research projects.

I think one major advantage will be that UK public projects will not have to be offered up to all EU counties for tender. For example, under the old rules we were having trains built abroad because EU companies (some it is suggested subsidised though that is technically against EU rules) came in with lower prices. The effect of this sort of loss of orders is destroying some industries and they can often not be rebuilt.
I do appreciate that academics (of which I was one) often have a different outlook as many of them have not been directly involved with manufacturing industries. I agree that their funding option have, in some cases, been reduced. However direct funding from companies for research is always an option for projects with a more practical bent.
I had expected that most people working in the financial markets would have voted Remain but have been surprised that most of those that I know did not, for various reasons. The ones who did vote Remain usually had properties in Europe!

leeds22

If he gets this deal through + re entry to the Horizon project and kicks Boris and the ERG into the long grass, then he may have got my vote back as my MP.

I have seen that Sunak doesn't intend that the UK rejoins the Horizon project.

That's all. I have no idea what his rationale might be.

The deal that seems to have been agreed is close to what is actually happening at present, there are no actual Red and Green lanes but if your destination is NI you will be waved through.
Commercial goods are still liable to be checked even when 2 lanes are in operation. The EU are still retaining the final veto, they are at least giving the new system a chance to operate properly.

Will it pass parliament, maybe, if not Red and Green lanes will probably happen anyway, getting the Unions back into Stormont is another matter, wether it passes parliament or not.

If he gets this deal through + re entry to the Horizon project and kicks Boris and the ERG into the long grass, then he may have got my vote back as my MP.

Despite the problems, mostly due to the lack of competent negotiation by May and Johnson, we still feel the same.

So what do you think we have gained?

Interesting about your university graduates. My DD, a uni academic, was at a large academic conference on the day the referendum results were declared. She says that there were a lot of very long faces and shocked and upset people. Brexit has blocked access for UK researchers to a great many European research projects.

SporeRB

varian

I know that although most stupid people voted Leave, not all Leave voters were stupid.

Seven years on from the fraudulent referendum, ,most of the more intelligent Leave voters have admitted that they were misled.

I beg your pardon!! That is very nasty to accuse someone of being stupid just because they vote differently to you.

I live in East Midlands and know so many people who voted Leave including majority of my former colleagues. They are all middle class people with houses in the country. Majority of their children went to universities and have middle class professional jobs.

The people you mention who voted Leave and are less educated, I believe they are the Red Wall Labour supporters.

They never voted Tory, but voted Tory for the first time because they wanted Brexit. So, their votes are tactical strategic votes and they managed to out manoeuvre the highly educated Remain politicians in parliament who tried to stop the Brexit process.

We were leave voters too, spurred on by the waste that my husband saw when he worked in Brussels and by the requirement that the UK accept free movement within the EU. Also by the UK government allowing some of our industries to die whilst other EU governments found ways round the rules. We've seen the result in our steel industry in particular.
Many of our friends, mostly university graduates or professionally trained, felt the same.
Despite the problems, mostly due to the lack of competent negotiation by May and Johnson, we still feel the same.

Grantanow

On the contrary, I think Sunak has improved his stock of political capital by negotiating changes to the NI protocol and by demonstrating that it is possible to have a constructive relationship with the EU, a quite distinct approach from the Johnson-Frost -ERG approach which cast the EU as blameworthy and recalcitrant. I doubt Sunak has done enough to win the next GE but if I were a Tory MP I might be a little more optimistic about retaining my seat.

I agree he has gained some additional political capital.

He now has to negotiate how best to instruct (or not) his party if Johnson is found guilty.

He also needs his very far-right leanings to stay quiet.

The Whatsapp comment that dubbed "eat out to help out" as “eat out to help the virus get about” will not help but could be buried under the Johnson debacle.

He doesn't have much time and still has enemies within his party in parliament. They could choose to undermine him - although they may see the sense in not doing so.

I feel he will need to be very lucky to have a chance of forming the next government. However, stranger things have happened (many over the last 13 years).

On the contrary, I think Sunak has improved his stock of political capital by negotiating changes to the NI protocol and by demonstrating that it is possible to have a constructive relationship with the EU, a quite distinct approach from the Johnson-Frost -ERG approach which cast the EU as blameworthy and recalcitrant. I doubt Sunak has done enough to win the next GE but if I were a Tory MP I might be a little more optimistic about retaining my seat.

SoreRB '' Majority of their children went to universities and have middle class professional jobs.

The people you mention who voted Leave and are less educated, I believe they are the Red Wall Labour supporters''

Well how rude is that!!!

I wonder how those children who went to Uni and have middle class professional jobs voted!?!

No let's NOT get over Johnson, ENO - he will be back if he has the chance! As for this hopeful deal, the Tories are only trying to clear up their own mess. There are good points to Sunak, but my fear is that the electorate will be seduced into voting the Conservatives back in, which would be a disaster

varian

I know that although most stupid people voted Leave, not all Leave voters were stupid.

Seven years on from the fraudulent referendum, ,most of the more intelligent Leave voters have admitted that they were misled.

I beg your pardon!! That is very nasty to accuse someone of being stupid just because they vote differently to you.

I live in East Midlands and know so many people who voted Leave including majority of my former colleagues. They are all middle class people with houses in the country. Majority of their children went to universities and have middle class professional jobs.

The people you mention who voted Leave and are less educated, I believe they are the Red Wall Labour supporters.

They never voted Tory, but voted Tory for the first time because they wanted Brexit. So, their votes are tactical strategic votes and they managed to out manoeuvre the highly educated Remain politicians in parliament who tried to stop the Brexit process.

MaizieD

Katie59

“So how does that explain the majority of over 65s voting Leave?”

It doesn’t, it’s probably due to more conservative attitudes as we get older, but that obviously apply to the majority of GN users.

I still don't understand. What does 'more conservative attitudes as we get older' have to do with voting to leave the EU?

'Conservative' is usually about maintaining the status quo, not overturning it.

Like Maizie, I disagree that it was a more conservative attitude - If it was to what aspect of life was it "more conservative"? Presumably, you mean the 'strangers in our midst'. Although the Leave team played on this, I think there was much more going on.

We also know that the people who voted leave, grouped as "less educated". This can be interpreted in many ways. I would ask if it could be that this generation was, under government rules, offered "less" education. I would note that they were told there were jobs for life and, therefore, they would not need to extend their education.

I would then ask if this generation realised the privilege of education they had, in large numbers, been denied when they found the jobs were not for life and that education mattered to the possibilities in their lives as much as it does in others lives.

I can totally understand why this would make a large tranche of the population very anti any group that they believe applies rules to their lives.

and don't mention the 'r' word.

Joseanne, about the house in France or elsewhere they could not afford in UK- I am not talking hereabout those who bought Châteaux or Mansions- but very modest homes, that took lots of effort and sacrifices to do up- in preparation for retirement.

And with the right attitude too, making sure to learn the language before the big move, and learning about the culture, history, etc.

I know that although most stupid people voted Leave, not all Leave voters were stupid.

Seven years on from the fraudulent referendum, ,most of the more intelligent Leave voters have admitted that they were misled.

Mamie

Fleurpepper

Urmstongran

Please do not put words in my mouth Fleurpepper! I think ‘traitors’ is an unnecessarily inflammatory term. I just said they’d ‘bailed’. Or planned to. My vote could not possibly square the circle for every retiree’s choices. I based MY vote for MY country. And I’d do it again given the chance.

I only holiday in Europe and chose to buy a holiday home there.
Big difference.

Siope I’m not ignoring you but I’m just tired and about to turn to my bed soon. I will reply to your post tomorrow if I may?

Goodnight all.

'bailed'is very inflammatory. Those people did not 'bail' - they worked hard, all their lives, contibuting to the country in so many ways, paying taxes, etc. Many of those who decided to retire abroad, after those useful lives of service, did not 'bail', they did not turn their back on their country, because they don't love it. For many, it was for a change, a last adventure, more sunshine- and as said, for a house they could afford, and could have never afforded in the UK. For many houses bought a long time ago, and that they have spent years and years and all their savings to renovate, as well as a ot of elbow grease and sweat, to retire to. And now find that it is just not so easy than it was.

Mamie, please remind me, can retirees now benefit from S1?

Yes, when they reach (OAP) retirement age if they were resident before the end of the transition period. Not if they moved afterwards.
Anyone who has worked in France and paid cotisations for any length of time will be in the French system and France will be their "competent state". The catch-all French PUMA system for health cover will still be available to new arrivals from the UK.

Yes, I thought so. S1 allowed retirees (of uk official retirement age, not early retired) to have free treatment in France, and also to be able to access treatment in the UK. Good to know that Puma will still be available for those arriving after the transition period. How does that work? And will it work for all EU countries?

Joseanne

^Anyone who has worked in France and paid cotisations for any length of time will be in the French system^ I am hoping this might also apply to returnees in retirement, Mamie, though the paperwork involved will no doubt be mountainous. Somewhere I have a French pension floating around there too. Nothing has ever been simple.

It used to depend on where you had paid the majority of your contributions, so if it was France they arranged for your UK contributions to be transferred to your French pension and vice versa. I don't know how it works since Brexit, but there will be a forum on Facebook (not sure if it is still RIFT).
And yes to the heavy dossier. The one for our original Titre de Séjour was six inches thick and leasing a new car last year was 200 pages to sign (more than buying a house).
Bon courage. 😂🇫🇷

Anyone who has worked in France and paid cotisations for any length of time will be in the French system I am hoping this might also apply to returnees in retirement, Mamie, though the paperwork involved will no doubt be mountainous. Somewhere I have a French pension floating around there too. Nothing has ever been simple.

For many it was ........ for a house they could afford, and could have never afforded in the UK. That is the most short sighted, misguided reason ever to move abroad in retirement. I've witnessed it several times, and ironically it buys straight into the idea that owning a bigger or better property is what life is all about.

Katie59

“So how does that explain the majority of over 65s voting Leave?”

It doesn’t, it’s probably due to more conservative attitudes as we get older, but that obviously apply to the majority of GN users.

I still don't understand. What does 'more conservative attitudes as we get older' have to do with voting to leave the EU?

'Conservative' is usually about maintaining the status quo, not overturning it.

I’m guessing that the GN demographic would tend to veer towards the more articulate, technologically capable, politically aware, and dare I say it has % of those with higher education than the average for their age group. ( that’s just an observation as we don’t have the full facts) .

Fleurpepper

Urmstongran

Please do not put words in my mouth Fleurpepper! I think ‘traitors’ is an unnecessarily inflammatory term. I just said they’d ‘bailed’. Or planned to. My vote could not possibly square the circle for every retiree’s choices. I based MY vote for MY country. And I’d do it again given the chance.

I only holiday in Europe and chose to buy a holiday home there.
Big difference.

Siope I’m not ignoring you but I’m just tired and about to turn to my bed soon. I will reply to your post tomorrow if I may?

Goodnight all.

'bailed'is very inflammatory. Those people did not 'bail' - they worked hard, all their lives, contibuting to the country in so many ways, paying taxes, etc. Many of those who decided to retire abroad, after those useful lives of service, did not 'bail', they did not turn their back on their country, because they don't love it. For many, it was for a change, a last adventure, more sunshine- and as said, for a house they could afford, and could have never afforded in the UK. For many houses bought a long time ago, and that they have spent years and years and all their savings to renovate, as well as a ot of elbow grease and sweat, to retire to. And now find that it is just not so easy than it was.

Mamie, please remind me, can retirees now benefit from S1?

Yes, when they reach (OAP) retirement age if they were resident before the end of the transition period. Not if they moved afterwards.
Anyone who has worked in France and paid cotisations for any length of time will be in the French system and France will be their "competent state". The catch-all French PUMA system for health cover will still be available to new arrivals from the UK.