So letting in a bit of reality - does this mean it is the beginning of the end of Brexit

Sadly there are still people who need to be reminded about the lies we were told in 2016

twitter.com/Gonch2020/status/1588678342848323584?t=zz9oUyD2WcbGoTZBzVaAlg&s=19

I am nt talking about people who vote Labour, I am talking about MPS, party apparatchiks, which is where MP's are chosen from and all around them.

I have just discovered this report researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf It is absolutely fascinating. I would draw your attention to tables on 24-27 and the associated text.

Apart from the minor variabilities between the two parties, note in particular the high proportion of those who are now MPs, who came into Parliament through working in politically centred jobs (heading: Instrumental) 55% of Conservatives, 74% of Labour and 63% of Lib/Dems.

If we needed evidence that our MPs (all parties) enter politics as a profession and have little or np experience of any other, this is it.

If we want to know why politics is the incompetent shambles it is at the monent , this is it. Most MPs, of all parties, are making politics their careers and are more interested in scrambling for promotion than serving their constituents and their country.

Of course many people go into politics for their own ends, and always have, but I think MPs whose self interests are wide and varied, from their profession, to their business, their union, their social group, provide better government than MPs, joined in one self interest, their political career.

I keep forgetting the London hinterland. I'm from NE Essex.

Ahem Maizie! But Saffron Walden does its best to disassociate itself from the rest of Essex, which many round here consider distinctly "chav". I would have expected better from you, if you really know the area.

^ My own constituency of Saffron Walden is jam-packed with "middle class" professionals and has a Conservative majority of over 27,000.^

But Essex (where I grew up) has always been predominantly tory. My home town did have a LibDem MP for a while, but reverted to tory in 2019. I can't see Labour ever really doing much in Essex.

'deprived', not 'deprives'.

It's debateable, though. My constituency, in a deprives area, has always been a Labour stronghold but turned 'red wall' in 2019. Yet neighbouring Durham City, big university, expensive housing, very middle class, stayed solidly Labour in 2019.

PS. Don't try and tell me that being a teacher isn't mundane!

I'm not convinced that's actually true. Labour strongholds, such as Liverpool and Manchester, are not full of professional "middle classes". I was born and brought up in Birkenhead, which has a nearly 18,000 Labour majority and most certainly isn't affluent. My own constituency of Saffron Walden is jam-packed with "middle class" professionals and has a Conservative majority of over 27,000.

There's something else going on in voting behaviour, which has more to do with cultural issues. Spin doctors and the Conservative media would like people to think that the Labour Party doesn't represent "working people", but I don't think it's really true, especially as most people of working age (and some over state pension age) are actually "working people". It wouldn't take many hands to count the number of people in the UK who go down mines, so I don't think a party just for them would be very successful these days.

growstuff back to normal, I am going to disagree. The Labour party until a decade or two ago was full, at all levels, of people who had started life on factory floors, down mines, and in shops.

There are a few of these left, but very few. The Labour party now seems to be dominated by teachers and lawyers and those in other professions, Their grandfathers may have been horny handed sons of toil, so were mine, but few grew up in homes with any experience of the problems previous generations experienced.

The problem with Labour is that those entering the profession these days are as 'middle class', a word I intensely dislike, but in narrow political circles, could be used, as their Conservative counterparts and all seem to have as little understanding of the lives of those with more mundane daily jobs as each other.

Dinahmo

Dickens "And, as my son pointed out, if one of them breaks ranks and starts to bat for the other side - Tony Benn - why is he scorned and derided by the very people he attempts to champion?"

I've often wondered about that - why are those people who might have voted Labour in the past so opposed now to those LP members who according to the Tories, live in Islington (or similar) and are the middle class, Guardian reading intelligentsia?

Is it because they believe that the middle classes are telling the "working "classes" what to do. Surely they must realise that the LP are trying to improve peoples lives?

Moreover, the Tories claim to be the party of aspiration and meritocracy. It's a weird kind of logic when people who "do well for themselves" are derided, even though they might still want to belong to the Labour Party and try to give people the same kind of helping hand they might have had.

I often disagree with you MOnica, but I agree with you absolutely on this. The situation is ridiculous.

If a success could be made of Brexit, it would have been by exploiting the UK's strengths - science research and innovation are somewhere near the top of the strengths list, but the government is not even replacing the funding the EU funding which the country has lost.

The whole world is looking for more sustainable ways to provide energy and to feed ourselves. The UK has the talent to lead the way (and provide jobs for plenty of "ordinary" people, while improving their standard of living), but it's throwing away the opportunities. EU centres are poaching the funding and the talent from the UK and will continue to do so. I despair.

Just under a fortnight ago the Treasury announced that

It has taken back £1.6bn that it had allocated to research, drawing fierce criticism from scientists. The money had been earmarked for UK involvement in the EU's Horizon Europe €100bn research programme. The funds have not been spent because the UK's association with the programme has been held up by the dispute over the Northern Ireland Protocol. www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64726522

Today, we have a press release saying , The Prime Minister and Technology Secretary today launched the government’s plan to cement the UK’s place as a science and technology superpower by 2030. [[www.gov.uk/government/news/plan-to-forge-a-better-britain-through-science-and-technology-unveiled www.gov.uk/government/news/plan-to-forge-a-better-britain-through-science-and-technology-unveiled}}

How much is going to be invested in this wonderful plan? Perhaps more than the £1.6 billion mentioned by the Treasury? Er, no, Sunak thinks that £370 million. , less than a quarter of what would have been available had we stayed in the EU. Science research has already been held up for three years because the government had failed to replace the Horizon funding. Now Sunak wants us to believe that cutting research funding by 75% is going to make us a science superpower

On top of that Jacob Rees-Mogg's plan for an all encompassing law to rescind all EU law. means that, among other issues it will scrap environental standards for beaches and rivers. Water Companies will be able to pour sewage into the seas and rivers with impunity. ( i p11, 6 march 2023).

Would some of the ostriches on this thread saying that Brexit hadn't affected them, like to consider these issues and how they will affect them and their families not now, but in the future

ENO Do you not even recognise that many people who voted for Brexit have now changed their minds? So they have listened to the arguments in favour of Brexit and now come to a different conclusion.

There are a few Remainers who over the last couple of years have admitted to changing their minds and favouring Brexit. Not many but there are some.

I've thought of a group of people who I don't think have been mentioned. Those people who have acquired a holiday home in Europe and hope to retire here. It is now more difficult for them to do so.

Dickens "And, as my son pointed out, if one of them breaks ranks and starts to bat for the other side - Tony Benn - why is he scorned and derided by the very people he attempts to champion?"

I've often wondered about that - why are those people who might have voted Labour in the past so opposed now to those LP members who according to the Tories, live in Islington (or similar) and are the middle class, Guardian reading intelligentsia?

Is it because they believe that the middle classes are telling the "working "classes" what to do. Surely they must realise that the LP are trying to improve peoples lives?

ExperiencedNotOld

Dickens - well argued.
However, as a very ‘ordinary’ person (aka not worthy?) I’m out as this thread has come to beyond an echo chamber now, with the same few trotting out the same arguments, never being persuaded to shift their opinion by one jot.

Well, that's a shame because I really would have liked some answers.

Somebody asked what kind of negative effects Brexit had had on ordinary people, so I gave some examples from my personal experience. They are all genuine and the people concerned are very ordinary. Than I was told that these people aren't ordinary at all. Indeed, the need of the person I know who is a professional fruit and veg grower and needs to import was mocked. It's weird because his kind of produce is what the same people keep saying the country needs.

I'm sure there are loads of other examples, but I didn't want to rely on hearsay or ridiculous examples from people who couldn't be considered ordinary in any way.

So who are these ordinary people who voted for and have benefitted from Brexit? What have they gained over the last seven years?

How far have you shifted your opinion ENO in the light of overwhelming evidence that you were wrong?

Dickens - well argued.
However, as a very ‘ordinary’ person (aka not worthy?) I’m out as this thread has come to beyond an echo chamber now, with the same few trotting out the same arguments, never being persuaded to shift their opinion by one jot.

You might be right Dickens

I was quite shocked to find that my richest friend had voted Leave, although I suspect that her better educated but poorer children were Remainers.

Of course we do know that a tiny number of very rich people actually benefitted from brexit because it helped them avoid tax, but they are very few.

Meanwhile millions of disadvantaged people voted to harm themselves because The Express, The Sun, The Daily Mail told them they could shaft David Cameron.

growstuff

MaizieD

So who exactly is "ordinary"?

A concept that always puzzles me, growstuff

I expect that even Johnson might think he's 'ordinary'

I wish I were "ordinary" enough to be paid thousands for giving after dinner speeches. In the case of his father, I'd like to be "ordinary" enough to obtain French citizenship.

As it is, it appears I belong to a sub-ordinary category. My acquaintances who have been affected by Brexit belong to this same sub-ordinary category.

I am serious about wanting to know who these "ordinary" people are. I'd also really like to know how "ordinary" people (once it's been established who they are) have benefitted from Brexit.

Perhaps what some people mean when they talk about "ordinary" people is those people who don't belong to the 'chattering-classes' group of people, if you people see what I mean?

It's all to do with the fact that we are still IMO a very class-conscious society. And it's unfortunately a fact that a certain amount of luck sometimes dictates whether you remain at the bottom of the pile and struggle for the rest of your life, or scramble out and lead a more comfortable one. In my own case - no details - pure luck put me in a fortunate position. I may have worked hard and been rewarded for it, but without that bit of luck, I'd still be struggling. And I know it. And that's why I can relate to those who have an uphill battle almost from the minute they're born... because we do not all start from the same advantage point, I don't believe, except in theory.

But, what puzzles me - and I was discussing this with my son the other day - is that those that Maizie refers to as having got above their station (or words to that effect) are quite often despised by those who, well - haven't. Yet the lucky (and I use the word deliberately) minority who were definitely born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouths, the very very wealthy elite who start life from a privileged position, are not only tolerated but even admired by ordinary people. They may achieve little on a personal level and have certainly never known the impoverishment of some of their admirers. To be blunt - why does Rees-Mogg have an internet fan-club? Why are the pronouncements of Sir xxx or Lady xxx or the Rt Hon xxx given so much reverence? And, as my son pointed out, if one of them breaks ranks and starts to bat for the other side - Tony Benn - why is he scorned and derided by the very people he attempts to champion?

Seems like we have to accept that if we're not considered 'ordinary', don't belong to the wealthy elite fraternity, we've got our just deserts where Brexit is concerned. And you'll eat turnips instead of tomatoes and all the other out-of-season produce, and like it. 😉

varian

2016 was a good year for Vladimir Putin who backed brexit and Trump.

There were only three foreign leaders who backed brexit - Trump, Putin and the French fascist Marine le Pen.

The Italian fascists too.

So many others flump- one country Conservatives who saw right through this trap and the lies.

MaizieD

^So who exactly is "ordinary"?^

A concept that always puzzles me, growstuff

I expect that even Johnson might think he's 'ordinary'

I wish I were "ordinary" enough to be paid thousands for giving after dinner speeches. In the case of his father, I'd like to be "ordinary" enough to obtain French citizenship.

As it is, it appears I belong to a sub-ordinary category. My acquaintances who have been affected by Brexit belong to this same sub-ordinary category.

I am serious about wanting to know who these "ordinary" people are. I'd also really like to know how "ordinary" people (once it's been established who they are) have benefitted from Brexit.

I watched a clip, posted by Jon Danzig on You Tube recently, of John Major being interviewed by Andrew Marr on 5 June 2016.

His correct insight into the consequences of Brexit is interesting to say the least. I hadn't seen it before, but the Remain side should have promoted it at the time. There would still have been those who wouldn't believe him but it might have persuaded the uncertain voters that the Leave side were lying. Also, did anyone bother to read the booklet that every household was sent pre referendum?

I have never, and will never, vote Conservative but it doesn't mean I can't recognise a politician of that ilk who actually cares about the country. Look what has happened when those people are side lined because of self glorification!

We have ended up with a cabal who seem to have had an empathy bypass and the Dunning Kruger effect looms large.