Junior Doctors strike

foxie48 I was just about to write the same thing - or bank of some rich relatives' dying.

My daughter has friends in a similar position - two junior doctors, both only children, who have both inherited a substantial amount of money recently. They've just bought a beautiful house, which they couldn't possibly have afforded without the inheritances.

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m sure they don’t Maizie, but they contribute a very hefty sum. For instance imagine the VAT on a brand new Lamborghini (from the English dealership) and stamp duty on a £10m apartment (already a homeowner so surcharge applies), just for starters - and that’s one person, before he starts furnishing the apartment, filling the tank, indulging in expensive hospitality … you may call it an anecdote, I know that person.

We are not talking about them though, are we? And yes, you can be sure Junior doctors do not buy new or old Lamborghinis, and 10m apartments. Who cares if you know that person?!?

We need doctors, they have very long studies and training. By the way, GPs have to do 2 years on top of studies, and another 3 on rotation to be able to be a GP.

And if 'junior' doctors are looking at houses well over 1 million. they have inherited some money or got it from BofM&D.

I think I am having an Alf Garnett moment so we are all agreed about the academic rigour required to be a doctor? Surely if the first 5 years or so of a junior doctor’s life are not very well paid, potential medics need to be aware of this? Surely careers advisors would have pointed this out? How could you not know what you were signing up to? The pay scales are online.

My mil was a theatre sister and I remember her saying that when she started out it was all about the higher ideals of nursing but at some point, her nursing career was all about how much money she could make. Well at least she was truthful!

Oreo

MaizieD

One doctor on tv said he could not afford to live near his hospital in Oxford. Lots of young professionals find themselves in this situation too.

Instead of insinuating that doctors shouldn't be trying to be better off than other young professionals, how about comparing them with the highly paid financial sector employees of a similar age?

I don't understand why everyone has to be reduced to the lowest common denominator...

Watched an Escape To The Country a few weeks ago where two young junior doctors wanted to live near the Oxford hospital, on the green outskirts or a nearby village.They were viewing houses of well over a million pounds.They had no children as yet and were looking at 4/5 bed gorgeous houses.

Almost certainly bank of Mum and Dad, certainly not the result of the pay they received as young doctors. I should know, my daughter is a junior doctor!

They need a reasonable rise - so, of course, they'll ask for an amount that compensates for historic losses. They'll probably get less.

I’m sure they don’t Maizie, but they contribute a very hefty sum. For instance imagine the VAT on a brand new Lamborghini (from the English dealership) and stamp duty on a £10m apartment (already a homeowner so surcharge applies), just for starters - and that’s one person, before he starts furnishing the apartment, filling the tank, indulging in expensive hospitality … you may call it an anecdote, I know that person.

Like many others, they are due a salary increase but are asking for a ridiculous amount.I know you have to start higher than what you expect as a figure, but even so!

MaizieD

^One doctor on tv said he could not afford to live near his hospital in Oxford. Lots of young professionals find themselves in this situation too.^

Instead of insinuating that doctors shouldn't be trying to be better off than other young professionals, how about comparing them with the highly paid financial sector employees of a similar age?

I don't understand why everyone has to be reduced to the lowest common denominator...

Watched an Escape To The Country a few weeks ago where two young junior doctors wanted to live near the Oxford hospital, on the green outskirts or a nearby village.They were viewing houses of well over a million pounds.They had no children as yet and were looking at 4/5 bed gorgeous houses.

MaizieD

I'm afraid that government figures on over all taxation and economists studies tend to contradict any idea that 'the rich' spend enough into the domestic economy to keep it going.

But anecdote wins out over data every time.

I think rich people do spend quite freely. I'd tend to agree that rich people don't keep a big domestic econony going.

Not mutually exclusive thoughts.

I'm afraid that government figures on over all taxation and economists studies tend to contradict any idea that 'the rich' spend enough into the domestic economy to keep it going.

But anecdote wins out over data every time.

Siope, what anyone in the private sector earns is the result of a private contract between them and their employer depending on the employer’s ability to pay and we have no involvement in that. Public sector employees are paid by the government (Maizie won’t let me say taxpayer) and can only be paid what the government can afford to pay. Maizie will say the government just have to print more money; I disagree.

I’m reminded of the saying, ’Walk a few miles in my moccasins’. I don’t know the full ins and outs of a junior doctor’s job to comment on whether they deserve more pay or not. But I can comment on what I’ve experienced of the NHS as a patient. It seemed unfit for purpose 20 years ago and it’s considerably worse now. It must be horrendous working within it, and getting worse …. probably by the day

GrammyGrammy

They know less than you and google so it's no loss. Probably less people will die from their idiocy over those days.

What an unpleasant post, yet again!

I ended up in hospital a month ago, very unwell.
It was a junior doctor, who got to the bottom of what was wrong with me, when I had been very unwell for fourteen months, after my GP kept fobbing me off.

I will be ever grateful for this junior doctor's out of the box thinking. I have nothing, but praise for my treatment.
Without being over dramatic, he saved my life.

I can well imagine that those who use private health insurance won't mind junior doctors leaving the NHS in droves to go to the private sector, due to very stressful conditions and low pay. Many will go abroad too, for the same reasons.

Siope, my point is simply that in the private sector the government doesn’t foot the wage bill. In the public sector it does. It is not for me to find a solution.

But what is the comparison you are making? Are you just comparing apples and oranges to be argumentative (because there is a market for finance workers and none for most public sector services, or where there is, it would be at a price which excluded most people who need the service)? Or are you saying that the intrinsic value of public services is lower regardless of the level of skill, training, and expertise of staff? Or are you making some other point that I’m not understanding?

A junior doctor is no different to a junior barrister. The junior doctor isn’t a consultant and the junior barrister isn’t a KC. Both will earn more as they gain years of experience. Much more.

Maizie, my son’s banker friends spend eye watering sums in the domestic economy. Plenty of VAT and stamp duty revenue results.

Siope, my point is simply that in the private sector the government doesn’t foot the wage bill. In the public sector it does. It is not for me to find a solution.

Many junior doctors are extensively trained and very experienced but have not yet reached consultant status. They are not oily rags to the engineer. Their pay has fallen behind and they work extremely hard in the NHS. Some died of Covid contracted in hospital. I support their claim for a better deal.

Germanshepherdsmum

Financial sector employees aren’t paid by the taxpayer are they?

You seem to be saying work has no intrinsic value, and only the market can determine value and pay accordingly?

If I’ve understood that correctly, what is your solution for the delivery of services where there is need but no market? This would include but not be limited to: accident and emergency departments; child protection; the armed services.

GrannyGravy13

choughdancer

As lixy says, 'junior doctors' is a misleading term, and I think it should be removed or changed to reflect what they do. 'Junior' inevitably suggests 'lesser' or 'lower' in rank, as if they are not really quite proper doctors yet!

The term Junior Doctors has and is being used by all media regarding this strike.

Yes it is being used by all the media because that is their job title.
As others have said it doesn't mean they are younger/less experienced etc, just that they are not consultants.
It does cover a wide spectrum of hospital-based doctors including those who are qualified doctors and are beginning their careers as well as those who have been qualified for many years.

foxie it is merely a statement of fact. It is an appalling sum to be earning.

Germanshepherdsmum

Lifting the bankers’ bonus cap didn’t cost the country a penny - quite the reverse, bankers pay a lot of tax.

I really CBA to go over all this again. A great deal of the banker's bonuses are a result of quantitative easing which has put more money into the financial markets by inflating financial asset prices and the absurd practice of paying interest on bank reserves, which are money issued by the state in the first place.

Of course they pay a lot of tax, they earn a lot of money. But I suspect you're talking solely about income tax. They don't pay NI after a certain level, and, as they tend not to spend any extra they get into the domestic economy, they don't pay extra VAT. And if they invest their money, dividend income isn't taxed as highly as earned income.

But taxation doesn't fund spending, so what they pay is irrelevant.

ronib

MaizieD young in training architects, accountants, scientists, teachers, university lecturers, engineers are not at all well remunerated. They face exactly the same issues as junior doctors in terms of housing, cost of living crisis etc. To my knowledge young professionals are not demanding 35 per cent pay rises. I am surprised that you think this category of valued worker is the lowest common denominator.

Not everyone wants to work in the financial sector.

You do realise that a great many ;junior doctors' are not 'young professionals'. They are older people with many years experience and with more responsibilities than someone just embarking on their careers.

Tell me again why everyone should be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

Just to clarify, after passing the 5 or 6 year medical course at university, doctors are required to do a 2 year foundation course This is a two-year training programme for newly qualified doctors. After successful completion of its first year, the General Medical Council grants full registration with a licence to practise. This is necessary to practise as a doctor in the UK.
tbh I'm quite shocked that anyone thinks £14 per hour is an acceptable salary for a newly qualified doctor.

CoolCoco- absolutely. I am a little concerned by the poster who feels that s/he and Google know more than doctors in his/ her area. However, if doctors aren't needed by the poster, perhaps they could be sent to my area? There's a shortage locally.

Lifting the bankers’ bonus cap didn’t cost the country a penny - quite the reverse, bankers pay a lot of tax.