Junior Doctors strike

Germanshepherdsmum

Financial sector employees aren’t paid by the taxpayer are they?

Where does nearly all the UK's money come from, GSM? Who issues it?
Who has complete sovereignty over how much it can issue and who it can issue it to?

The taxpayer does not pay NHS staff, the government does with money that it can issue at will.

The financial markets just gamble with that money, but it's still, put in your terms 'taxpayers (public) money' It just doesn't get paid directly to them.

Not that old chestnut again Maizie. We might as well stop paying taxes then.

MaizieD young in training architects, accountants, scientists, teachers, university lecturers, engineers are not at all well remunerated. They face exactly the same issues as junior doctors in terms of housing, cost of living crisis etc. To my knowledge young professionals are not demanding 35 per cent pay rises. I am surprised that you think this category of valued worker is the lowest common denominator.

Not everyone wants to work in the financial sector.

I believe a newly qualified doctor earns around £14 an hour. Some cleaners are paid more.

I think it is a pity that all hospital doctors below consultant level are called junior doctors, which gives a misleading impression of the age, qualifications, experience and responsibilty of doctors in their late twenties and thirties.

varian

I think it is a pity that all hospital doctors below consultant level are called junior doctors, which gives a misleading impression of the age, qualifications, experience and responsibilty of doctors in their late twenties and thirties.

Exactly!

A junior doctor is paid just over £14 an hour for their first year of workplace training. So not a fully qualified doctor.

The BMA has published tables on pay. It’s not straightforward £14 per hour if anyone is interested.

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is paid just over £14 an hour for their first year of workplace training. So not a fully qualified doctor.

These junior doctors, getting £14 per hour ARE fully qualified doctors, just not specialists .

They have to do workplace training before being fully qualified. Rather like being a lawyer, passing your exams doesn’t qualify you to practise.

When I was having treatment every three weeks I found the junior doctors to be wonderful. They were patient, usually on time and listened to any worries I had. I cannot say the same for the consultants.

So yes I support them and the nurses 100%.

I want the brightest and best qualified people to take care of people who are ill. To do that the medical profession needs to pay a reasonable salary. A bright school leaver looking at the financial rewards wouldn't choose medicine .
The law pays more, financial services pay more, even the Civil Service pays more. There is something wrong with a system which values the care of people less than any of those.

Its strange that the government lifted the bankers bonus cap in order to remain competitive with other countries. Junior doctors are leaving in droves to head to Canada, USA, Germany, Australia etc where they have much better pay and conditions. We definitely need to pay such essential workers a salary equal to elsewhere if we don't want the NHS to collapse completely. If we can afford to pay billions to the likes of test n trace and Michelle Mone , then we should pay our medics competitively.

Lifting the bankers’ bonus cap didn’t cost the country a penny - quite the reverse, bankers pay a lot of tax.

CoolCoco- absolutely. I am a little concerned by the poster who feels that s/he and Google know more than doctors in his/ her area. However, if doctors aren't needed by the poster, perhaps they could be sent to my area? There's a shortage locally.

Just to clarify, after passing the 5 or 6 year medical course at university, doctors are required to do a 2 year foundation course This is a two-year training programme for newly qualified doctors. After successful completion of its first year, the General Medical Council grants full registration with a licence to practise. This is necessary to practise as a doctor in the UK.
tbh I'm quite shocked that anyone thinks £14 per hour is an acceptable salary for a newly qualified doctor.

ronib

MaizieD young in training architects, accountants, scientists, teachers, university lecturers, engineers are not at all well remunerated. They face exactly the same issues as junior doctors in terms of housing, cost of living crisis etc. To my knowledge young professionals are not demanding 35 per cent pay rises. I am surprised that you think this category of valued worker is the lowest common denominator.

Not everyone wants to work in the financial sector.

You do realise that a great many ;junior doctors' are not 'young professionals'. They are older people with many years experience and with more responsibilities than someone just embarking on their careers.

Tell me again why everyone should be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

Germanshepherdsmum

Lifting the bankers’ bonus cap didn’t cost the country a penny - quite the reverse, bankers pay a lot of tax.

I really CBA to go over all this again. A great deal of the banker's bonuses are a result of quantitative easing which has put more money into the financial markets by inflating financial asset prices and the absurd practice of paying interest on bank reserves, which are money issued by the state in the first place.

Of course they pay a lot of tax, they earn a lot of money. But I suspect you're talking solely about income tax. They don't pay NI after a certain level, and, as they tend not to spend any extra they get into the domestic economy, they don't pay extra VAT. And if they invest their money, dividend income isn't taxed as highly as earned income.

But taxation doesn't fund spending, so what they pay is irrelevant.

foxie it is merely a statement of fact. It is an appalling sum to be earning.

GrannyGravy13

choughdancer

As lixy says, 'junior doctors' is a misleading term, and I think it should be removed or changed to reflect what they do. 'Junior' inevitably suggests 'lesser' or 'lower' in rank, as if they are not really quite proper doctors yet!

The term Junior Doctors has and is being used by all media regarding this strike.

Yes it is being used by all the media because that is their job title.
As others have said it doesn't mean they are younger/less experienced etc, just that they are not consultants.
It does cover a wide spectrum of hospital-based doctors including those who are qualified doctors and are beginning their careers as well as those who have been qualified for many years.

Germanshepherdsmum

Financial sector employees aren’t paid by the taxpayer are they?

You seem to be saying work has no intrinsic value, and only the market can determine value and pay accordingly?

If I’ve understood that correctly, what is your solution for the delivery of services where there is need but no market? This would include but not be limited to: accident and emergency departments; child protection; the armed services.

Many junior doctors are extensively trained and very experienced but have not yet reached consultant status. They are not oily rags to the engineer. Their pay has fallen behind and they work extremely hard in the NHS. Some died of Covid contracted in hospital. I support their claim for a better deal.

A junior doctor is no different to a junior barrister. The junior doctor isn’t a consultant and the junior barrister isn’t a KC. Both will earn more as they gain years of experience. Much more.

Maizie, my son’s banker friends spend eye watering sums in the domestic economy. Plenty of VAT and stamp duty revenue results.

Siope, my point is simply that in the private sector the government doesn’t foot the wage bill. In the public sector it does. It is not for me to find a solution.

Siope, my point is simply that in the private sector the government doesn’t foot the wage bill. In the public sector it does. It is not for me to find a solution.

But what is the comparison you are making? Are you just comparing apples and oranges to be argumentative (because there is a market for finance workers and none for most public sector services, or where there is, it would be at a price which excluded most people who need the service)? Or are you saying that the intrinsic value of public services is lower regardless of the level of skill, training, and expertise of staff? Or are you making some other point that I’m not understanding?

I can well imagine that those who use private health insurance won't mind junior doctors leaving the NHS in droves to go to the private sector, due to very stressful conditions and low pay. Many will go abroad too, for the same reasons.