Junior Doctors strike

GrammyGrammy

They know less than you and google so it's no loss. Probably less people will die from their idiocy over those days.

What an unpleasant post, yet again!

I ended up in hospital a month ago, very unwell.
It was a junior doctor, who got to the bottom of what was wrong with me, when I had been very unwell for fourteen months, after my GP kept fobbing me off.

I will be ever grateful for this junior doctor's out of the box thinking. I have nothing, but praise for my treatment.
Without being over dramatic, he saved my life.

I’m reminded of the saying, ’Walk a few miles in my moccasins’. I don’t know the full ins and outs of a junior doctor’s job to comment on whether they deserve more pay or not. But I can comment on what I’ve experienced of the NHS as a patient. It seemed unfit for purpose 20 years ago and it’s considerably worse now. It must be horrendous working within it, and getting worse …. probably by the day

Siope, what anyone in the private sector earns is the result of a private contract between them and their employer depending on the employer’s ability to pay and we have no involvement in that. Public sector employees are paid by the government (Maizie won’t let me say taxpayer) and can only be paid what the government can afford to pay. Maizie will say the government just have to print more money; I disagree.

I'm afraid that government figures on over all taxation and economists studies tend to contradict any idea that 'the rich' spend enough into the domestic economy to keep it going.

But anecdote wins out over data every time.

MaizieD

I'm afraid that government figures on over all taxation and economists studies tend to contradict any idea that 'the rich' spend enough into the domestic economy to keep it going.

But anecdote wins out over data every time.

I think rich people do spend quite freely. I'd tend to agree that rich people don't keep a big domestic econony going.

Not mutually exclusive thoughts.

MaizieD

^One doctor on tv said he could not afford to live near his hospital in Oxford. Lots of young professionals find themselves in this situation too.^

Instead of insinuating that doctors shouldn't be trying to be better off than other young professionals, how about comparing them with the highly paid financial sector employees of a similar age?

I don't understand why everyone has to be reduced to the lowest common denominator...

Watched an Escape To The Country a few weeks ago where two young junior doctors wanted to live near the Oxford hospital, on the green outskirts or a nearby village.They were viewing houses of well over a million pounds.They had no children as yet and were looking at 4/5 bed gorgeous houses.

Like many others, they are due a salary increase but are asking for a ridiculous amount.I know you have to start higher than what you expect as a figure, but even so!

I’m sure they don’t Maizie, but they contribute a very hefty sum. For instance imagine the VAT on a brand new Lamborghini (from the English dealership) and stamp duty on a £10m apartment (already a homeowner so surcharge applies), just for starters - and that’s one person, before he starts furnishing the apartment, filling the tank, indulging in expensive hospitality … you may call it an anecdote, I know that person.

They need a reasonable rise - so, of course, they'll ask for an amount that compensates for historic losses. They'll probably get less.

Oreo

MaizieD

One doctor on tv said he could not afford to live near his hospital in Oxford. Lots of young professionals find themselves in this situation too.

Instead of insinuating that doctors shouldn't be trying to be better off than other young professionals, how about comparing them with the highly paid financial sector employees of a similar age?

I don't understand why everyone has to be reduced to the lowest common denominator...

Watched an Escape To The Country a few weeks ago where two young junior doctors wanted to live near the Oxford hospital, on the green outskirts or a nearby village.They were viewing houses of well over a million pounds.They had no children as yet and were looking at 4/5 bed gorgeous houses.

Almost certainly bank of Mum and Dad, certainly not the result of the pay they received as young doctors. I should know, my daughter is a junior doctor!

I think I am having an Alf Garnett moment so we are all agreed about the academic rigour required to be a doctor? Surely if the first 5 years or so of a junior doctor’s life are not very well paid, potential medics need to be aware of this? Surely careers advisors would have pointed this out? How could you not know what you were signing up to? The pay scales are online.

My mil was a theatre sister and I remember her saying that when she started out it was all about the higher ideals of nursing but at some point, her nursing career was all about how much money she could make. Well at least she was truthful!

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m sure they don’t Maizie, but they contribute a very hefty sum. For instance imagine the VAT on a brand new Lamborghini (from the English dealership) and stamp duty on a £10m apartment (already a homeowner so surcharge applies), just for starters - and that’s one person, before he starts furnishing the apartment, filling the tank, indulging in expensive hospitality … you may call it an anecdote, I know that person.

We are not talking about them though, are we? And yes, you can be sure Junior doctors do not buy new or old Lamborghinis, and 10m apartments. Who cares if you know that person?!?

We need doctors, they have very long studies and training. By the way, GPs have to do 2 years on top of studies, and another 3 on rotation to be able to be a GP.

And if 'junior' doctors are looking at houses well over 1 million. they have inherited some money or got it from BofM&D.

foxie48 I was just about to write the same thing - or bank of some rich relatives' dying.

My daughter has friends in a similar position - two junior doctors, both only children, who have both inherited a substantial amount of money recently. They've just bought a beautiful house, which they couldn't possibly have afforded without the inheritances.

Everybody has suffered a loss in earnings over the past few years. But not everyone will be confident in knowing that regardless of what happens, they will definitely get a paypacket at the end of the month ( and not a bad one at that), paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, an exceptionally good maternity leave package and a really good pension at the end of their career.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that all the people going on strike at the moment belong to huge national organisations with the power of big unions behind them and all have the above privileges.
Does no one care for people who are paid an awful lot less who are struggling to keep their own businesses afloat and keep others in work. Or what about the self employed? Cleaners, carers , hairdressers , tradesmen etc. No work, no pay. Or nurses who work for hospices which are not NHS funded but rely mostly on charitable giving. Our local hospice is laying nurses off because they cannot afford them. And they are all going to that utterly dreadful , slave driving organisation known as the NHS.

Germanshepherdsmum

Lifting the bankers’ bonus cap didn’t cost the country a penny - quite the reverse, bankers pay a lot of tax.

Eh? So why doesn't increasing doctors' pay increase the amount of tax they pay?

Nevertheless, it's good to see that you understand what Maizie has been saying for years.

Lizbethann55

Everybody has suffered a loss in earnings over the past few years. But not everyone will be confident in knowing that regardless of what happens, they will definitely get a paypacket at the end of the month ( and not a bad one at that), paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, an exceptionally good maternity leave package and a really good pension at the end of their career.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that all the people going on strike at the moment belong to huge national organisations with the power of big unions behind them and all have the above privileges.
Does no one care for people who are paid an awful lot less who are struggling to keep their own businesses afloat and keep others in work. Or what about the self employed? Cleaners, carers , hairdressers , tradesmen etc. No work, no pay. Or nurses who work for hospices which are not NHS funded but rely mostly on charitable giving. Our local hospice is laying nurses off because they cannot afford them. And they are all going to that utterly dreadful , slave driving organisation known as the NHS.

Actually, I'm quite shocked by the amount my hairdresser and window cleaner have increased their charges over the last six months.

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is no different to a junior barrister. The junior doctor isn’t a consultant and the junior barrister isn’t a KC. Both will earn more as they gain years of experience. Much more.

Maizie, my son’s banker friends spend eye watering sums in the domestic economy. Plenty of VAT and stamp duty revenue results.

Siope, my point is simply that in the private sector the government doesn’t foot the wage bill. In the public sector it does. It is not for me to find a solution.

How many jobs does their VAT and stamp duty generate?

It's not the same as people spending relatively small amounts of money, which those receiving the money then spend on something else and so on. It's the circulation of money which keeps an economy going.

Lizbethann55

Everybody has suffered a loss in earnings over the past few years. But not everyone will be confident in knowing that regardless of what happens, they will definitely get a paypacket at the end of the month ( and not a bad one at that), paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, an exceptionally good maternity leave package and a really good pension at the end of their career.
Hasn't anyone else noticed that all the people going on strike at the moment belong to huge national organisations with the power of big unions behind them and all have the above privileges.
Does no one care for people who are paid an awful lot less who are struggling to keep their own businesses afloat and keep others in work. Or what about the self employed? Cleaners, carers , hairdressers , tradesmen etc. No work, no pay. Or nurses who work for hospices which are not NHS funded but rely mostly on charitable giving. Our local hospice is laying nurses off because they cannot afford them. And they are all going to that utterly dreadful , slave driving organisation known as the NHS.

I pay my cleaner and hairdresser significantly more than £14ph and when MIL was alive she paid her part time carer a great deal more than that and she was worth every penny. We had some building work done last year, we had to wait 6 months to be fitted in and I know his loyal team get paid well. tbh I don't resent paying people properly, what I won't do is let them avoid tax etc by paying cash.
Posters on here have talked about other "young professionals" being poorly paid, what is different is qualified doctors in training really only have one employer ie the NHS and the training to consultant level can only be completed by being an NHS doctor. Most "young professionals" can pick and choose their employer, that is most definitely not true of young doctors. Also, I doubt many young professionals have been sprayed with blood and other bodily fluids in the course of their work, had very little control over their next training job, had virtually no control over their working hours, nights, long days and weekends come as standard on the rota, have seen children die and parents collapse with grief, helped to deliver dead babies, been attacked by drunks, had to tell a mother their teenage son is dead.... honestly I could go on and whilst this is all happening, studying for the next exam, the next hoop to jump through! I'm extremely proud of my daughter being a doctor and supported her absolutely but I do think if she had taken a different route she'd have a more settled life, wouldn't look completely worn out and I wouldn't constantly worry about her driving home on the motorway after her fourth 13 hour shift on nights, when she is frequently the most senior doctor available unless she phones a consultant who is asleep at home! Anyone who equates this job with training as an accountant or solicitor.........???

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is paid just over £14 an hour for their first year of workplace training. So not a fully qualified doctor.

No!
A fist year doctor is a fully qualified doctor. After the five or six years at university a doctor graduates as a doctor. They then work F1 and F2 and are paid a salary because they are fully qualified doctors. They have not specialised at that point but they are fully qualified. During university they work in the hospitals too, it’s called clinical experience and they are still learning. My daughter spent three full years of her time at university engaged in clinical work in the hospitals, in a variety of hospitals all around London as she trained at UCL. Make no mistake about it, after six years at university, during which time she collected two degrees, one a BSc and the other a medical degree, in other words, a doctorate, she was fully qualified. Further work, study, and training is then acquired over years in order to become a Consultant.

Don’t you think the bankers and other well paid people also spend money in their communities growstuff? Buying food at Burrough Market, buying a coffee and a sandwich at lunchtime, a takeaway in the evening … ? You really have no idea. I know these people.

Absolutely foxie and very well said. That’s because you know the situation re doctors. Too many people think they know, but actually, they don’t.

growstuff How many jobs does their VAT and stamp duty generate? It's not the same as people spending relatively small amounts of money, which those receiving the money then spend on something else and so on. It's the circulation of money which keeps an economy going.

VAT and stamp duty do generate money into the economy. Spending is good, real agent earns and all other bits of the transaction, items with VAT earn money into the economy from manufacturer through seller.

My daughter has friends in a similar position - two junior doctors, both only children, who have both inherited a substantial amount of money recently. They've just bought a beautiful house, which they couldn't possibly have afforded without the inheritances.

Money changing hands, good for the economy and the buyers. Parents who can afford - doing a nice thing.

maddyone

Germanshepherdsmum

A junior doctor is paid just over £14 an hour for their first year of workplace training. So not a fully qualified doctor.

No!
A fist year doctor is a fully qualified doctor. After the five or six years at university a doctor graduates as a doctor. They then work F1 and F2 and are paid a salary because they are fully qualified doctors. They have not specialised at that point but they are fully qualified. During university they work in the hospitals too, it’s called clinical experience and they are still learning. My daughter spent three full years of her time at university engaged in clinical work in the hospitals, in a variety of hospitals all around London as she trained at UCL. Make no mistake about it, after six years at university, during which time she collected two degrees, one a BSc and the other a medical degree, in other words, a doctorate, she was fully qualified. Further work, study, and training is then acquired over years in order to become a Consultant.

Well done her. OH qualified at UCH in 1969. His first year as a Junior doctor, when I met him, he worked 140 hrs a week for exactly £1000. A different world altogether then!

£1000 a year!

Was your daughter able to work entirely unsupervised as soon as she graduated with her doctorate maddyone?