Junior Doctors strike

" If Sunak and Hunt believe wage increases in the public sector drive up inflation why did the Tories not introduce wage restraint in the private sector?"

A most pertinent question. Grantanow

And the answer is not, "because they can't". Its deeply embedded in some conservative philosophy, and a most unpleasant part too.

A caring - and practical - approach to inflations would have to look at overall realities and take hard decisions, and its not just that they don't want to go there:

but because of an outlook that sees "public servants" as secondary perhaps even inferior to business, whereas they are all intertwined.

Germanshepherdsmum

Financial sector employees aren’t paid by the taxpayer are they?

I agree they are not. Financial sector employees are paid from the profits of firms doing business with taxpayer clients, individual and corporate or government funded by the taxpayer. But does that not mean taxpayers contribute to their large salaries through the fees paid whether directly as individual taxpayers or indirectly through corporates providing goods and services to individuals? If Sunak and Hunt believe wage increases in the public sector drive up inflation why did the Tories not introduce wage restraint in the private sector? The argument that high salaries are needed to attract and retain talent in the City applies just as much to, say, medical staff in the NHS.

I think exuberance on the picket line is a way of blowing off steam having just worked long shifts in an understaffed and underfunded NHS. Of course 35% is not achievable but it makes the point their pay has been held back (along with most other public sector essential workers) coupled with the high rates of inflation and cost of living. It's appalling that the Tories have allowed a situation to develop in which there is an enormous backlog in the NHS now compounded by some cancelled 175,000 operations and treatments. They deserve a decent rise. Applause for their work during the pandemic is not enough.

It’s a two way deal as far as I’m concerned.

Of course it is. This is exactly right.

"However, if you are from overseas and pay massive sums for the course you can get in more easily. Something's crook in Ballarook. Those overseas new doctors leave, of course, to go to their countries of origin so the training country gets little benefit."
*nanna8" I don't know where or when you got this information but it is completely wrong. There was an article in the Sunday Times (2019) which alleged this but has been completely discredited by the Medical Schools Council. Funding for home and overseas is completely separate and overseas students are subjected to a cap of 7.5%, which has been in place for a number of years. British students also travel abroad for medical training in countries like Poland, Serbia, Bulgaria etc. I think you only have to look round the average UK hospital to see how much we depend on doctors and nurses who are not British and who have trained in their own country which is a rather different picture to the one you have painted.

I do support the strikers and yes treatment of 2 kinds has been held up for me...but was before the strikes.

Long waiting lists are not new. they have been endemic for some considerable time and I believe that's part of the reason health workers have been striking.

Its for us all. We need to take care of our health workers, who care for us.

Its a two way deal as far as I'm concerned.

BlueBalou I truly hope that you are able to get the treatment you need very soon 🌸🌸🌸

I’m one of the 170,000 who’s appointment has been cancelled because of these strikes. It’s an urgent appointment, I have severe heart failure and am deteriorating.
No I do not support any health workers striking, they’re holding the ill and worried to ransom.
I’m a retired nurse so I do know what it’s like in the NHS before I get jumped on.
Time’s running out for me and many others and we deserve better.

It used to be very easy to make an appointment here ,too. The difference now is the huge population increases just about everywhere. The number of available GPs just hasn't kept pace and here, to get into med school, you have to have a really, really high entry score ( perfect in fact). You can get in via a medical science degree but you still have to do extremely well. However, if you are from overseas and pay massive sums for the course you can get in more easily. Something's crook in Ballarook. Those overseas new doctors leave, of course, to go to their countries of origin so the training country gets little benefit.

All medical and nursing staff are under a great deal of work and financial pressure, and I expect they feel very stressed at having to take strike action. It must be heartening for them to hear cars beeping their support as they pass by. It is natural in a highly charged situation such as this that strikers feel buoyed up by visible public support.

I would much rather they enjoy those feelings of camaraderie amongst colleagues, and support from the general public, than becoming angry and aggressive, as sometimes happens in such situations.

ronib

MaizieD Is it nasty and judgmental to hark back to say 30 years ago when somehow my family had a very efficient if stern gp who was so helpful to my young family?

Even younger people are commenting on how very difficult it is to access medical treatments now.

By trying to mute criticism, are we not in danger of making a bad situation much worse?

Criticise them if they're not doing their jib properly, not when they are off duty and fighting for decent wages and working conditions.

I really don't see what your 30 year old interaction with your GP has to do with this. They might have been the life and soul of the party when off duty. Would you have then labelled them 'childish' as though it was a disgraceful thing to do?

lemsip

MaizieD

They do grow nasty and judgemental though
.........................................

you certainly have proved that statement!

Why?

I'm not the one (s) saying that the strikers on the picket lines seem 'childish' because they appear to be less serious than the posters think they should be?

How does their behaviour in any way indicate that they are not serious and professional when actually doing their rather important, and often life saving, job?

ronib

MaizieD Is it nasty and judgmental to hark back to say 30 years ago when somehow my family had a very efficient if stern gp who was so helpful to my young family?

Even younger people are commenting on how very difficult it is to access medical treatments now.

By trying to mute criticism, are we not in danger of making a bad situation much worse?

It's not the junior doctors fault that it's hard to access treatment though, is it? It's the governments chronic underfunding and under paying while siphoning off money to their friends and families. It's deliberate Tory policy to destroy the NHS.

It has been said that doctors are part of the public sector and therefore any increased pay has to come out of the public purse,, whereas what private employers pay their staff is a matter for them. However, indirectly we will bear the cost of the increased pay of lorry drivers and other employees in the private sector. Many such employers are now raising the pay of their workers, in order to retain them and not to have keep training up new staff. Employers will then pass on at least of proportion of that increased cost to customers.

I suspect that if nursing and medical staff don't get a reasonable rise, many will be looking elsewhere for decent pay - either in the private sector or abroad. Then the government will be faced with trying to recruit large numbers of trainee doctors - which, I think, will cost a lot of money, especially if they cannot retain those doctors. So, in my opinion, it is self defeating. As I have said before, though, the Conservatives have never, from its inception, been keen on the notion of a national health service, but I doubt there will be much talk now from Hunt and those who have in the past supported dismantling the health system, as there is an election in the offing. I suspect they will just allow the health service to become so chaotic and dysfunctional, in the hope that the population will turn against it.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘If this country can afford to pay builders and lorry drivers’ is totally irrelevant. Private sector, market forces. The government has no control over what anyone in the private sector is paid, nor should it. It’s up to the government to determine what public sector employees are paid. I don’t know why you don’t understand the distinction. It’s not about what anyone is worth, it’s about what the employer is able and willing to pay.

It is pretty obvious that those employing in the public sector are also subject to market forces, just as they should be.

Your views are very extreme on this and the truth weirdly adapted to suit them GSM.

You are being deliberately obtuse, for what reason I don’t know. The underpinning philosophy of a Tory small state government is to starve the public sector of funding, it has nothing to do with affordability. It’s a pointless discussion because we all know that you are already aware of that.

And you think private sector employers don’t do that?

Germanshepherdsmum

In either public or private sector employees are paid what the employer can afford.

Sorry, that is untrue. The government pays the minimum it thinks it can get away with, affordability is not the determining factor. You know that as well as we do.

Nothing new there.

The 'penny' will drop when they are all gone. As said, many recruiting agencies proposing amazing conditions abroad or in private sector.

The argument that the government/employer pays what they can afford is facile. It ignores the true complexity of the situation.

Germanshepherdsmum

In either public or private sector employees are paid what the employer can afford.

and they are totally free to walk away and go and work for another employer. in this case, another State, or private. They are young and free, and many not so impressed with what is happening to the country- easily tempted in such conditions.

We have lots of foreign nationals in our hospitals working as doctors, nurses, physios and just about everything else. We actively recruit in the Philippines, India etc and trained staff come here because we pay better than their own countries and our training is very good.
However, it also works the other way. Australia is actively recruiting doctors and nurses (+ other areas like police and paramedics) who have been trained and are working here. They pay more and conditions of service are better.
Market forces do work in the public sector tbh I sometimes think the only thing that keeps my daughter in the UK is me, when I die I think she'll leave the UK and because she's trained in a specialism which is in very high demand she'll be able to pick and choose.
I actually don't think it's all about money (certainly not with DD) but it is about "quality of life". She did 4 X 13 hour night shifts this week and spent one of them with a "career" locum, he's been doing this for 8 years, won't work for less than £100 ph and generally works 20 hours per week. He's given up on further training, won't become a consultant but has a pretty great life because his skills are in very short supply and hospitals need them to be safe for patients.
I think we need to find a way of shifting away from relying on locum staff and to do that we need doctors who are in FT training posts who are moving through the system towards becoming a consultant. If we want this we have to pay them properly and look after them and ATM we just don't!

In either public or private sector employees are paid what the employer can afford.

I just have to conclude that there are people who simply think doctors are not worth paying well. I’m very saddened by that.