Junior Doctors strike

It’s the only comparison I can offer from personal experience DaisyAnne. Both work very long hours. One is paid for every one of those hours, the other has a fixed salary no matter how many hours are worked. Both go on to earn far more as they gain experience.

I was in a L party local Zoom yesterday discussing what future plans we should put forward in resourcing MH provision into the future. Two doctors were there as well as nurses.
The GP and nurses felt passionately about what they so in this still relatively underfunded sector but the main theme coming out was that in the struggles they have to help people they are being *hit upon all he way, undervalued and yes underpaid in the junior side.

I totally back them. The mot senior doctors totally back them. Twas not always so. the BMA used to be a pillar of establishment values back in the day.

and yesterday in the budget, not a mention of public sector workers or trying to help the NHS.

time to value properly in every sense those who heaps in our times of greatest need, who daily have to make life and death decisions or quality of life decisions.

How many professions, like my doctor sister, have to make decisions about who gets kidney treatment and who dies? Who has to listen to pleas from those who are suicidal for help, and not able to offer enough?

correct, help in times of greatest need not heap! sorry feel rather passionately about it!

Wyllow The cynic in me wondered if yesterday's pension change, which will benefit older, senior doctors, was an attempt to drive a wedge between consultants and "junior" doctors.

And Hunt tried to spin it as helping the NHS.

A lovely doctor to whom I owe a lot retired in his 50s due to the pension situation so I am very pleased to see it tackled at last, after years of talk. We need the older, experienced doctors as well as the younger ones.

A retired midwife told me one of the problems with the NHS is that consultants are only allowed to work 25 hours a week so of course, extra hours are worked in the private sector.

As previously discussed in another thread, consultants voted against the expansion of medical places as it was felt that medical students could not be trained adequately if numbers expanded.

I am left with the impression of a large bureaucracy which includes an ample budget to pay for compensation claims when mistakes inevitably occur. I am sure that individual practitioners are highly motivated and probably exhausted but what next for this much valued service?

ronib what the midwife told you about consultant hours of work is incorrect. They are contracted to the NHS for 4 hour sessions (ie a morning or afternoon), and can work any number of sessions per week up to full time. On call is a separate payment arrangement. In my (long) experience of working in the NHS the majority of consultants work no less than 8 sessions per week for the NHS, and many work full time. If a consultant worked 25 hours it would not equate to sessions, the nearest being 24 hours, ie 6 sessions. I think sessions are now called programmed activity, ie a fixed timetable which all consultants work to.

growstuff

Wyllow The cynic in me wondered if yesterday's pension change, which will benefit older, senior doctors, was an attempt to drive a wedge between consultants and "junior" doctors.

I rather think it was a way to assist those with big pensions (the rich) whilst spinning the whole thing as being aimed at doctors. It would have been possible to do a deal for doctors without including other over paid people.

I completely support our junior doctors, nurses and teachers ….. as always Media put slants on their stories, I have both family and friends in all three of these professions and their salaries and working conditions are often appalling

Casdon thank you for your clear reply. So do you know how many hours count as full time?

I wouldn’t embarrass the retired midwife by naming her!

I was talking to my granddaughter who is in 3rd year on her medical degree and she was saying the “ junior doctors “ ones that have finished 5 yrs and go to hospitals to do their 2 yr traineeship are on less than folk at Starbucks, which seems astonishing!!

The role of a junior doctor should not be taken lightly. Often they are more on the ball for general medicine than more experienced drs who tend to specialise in one particular area. Even GPs can't know all there is to know on every known condition. The internet is a tool of the trade, a way of finding as much information as possible and often the best way of finding opinions of colleagues. Gone are the days where dr simply got together over dinner to discuss complex cases. Their case loads are enormous. Patients are ready to challenge every thing and taylor things to what they want instead of following suggestions. It just saddens me that nurses, doctors, those in education and those in other public service areas like the railway are so disgruntled with work and conditions that striking for more pay is now a "Thing".

They are worth every penny!!!

Low salaries are discouraging students from becoming doctors and many are migrating to find jobs where they are paid appropriately.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

A bit of a misleading OP. The BMA estimates that Junior doctor's salaries have fallen in real terms by 26% and it would take a rise of 35% to maintain the level.
I support them. They are the hardest working and carry great responsibility.

Lots of folks salaries have fallen in real terms over the last few years, including my own. I couldn’t justify giving myself a 35% pay rise.

It's still got tp be cheaper in the long run than the consultants asking for £262 per hour to cover for junior doctors.

I’d say yes you can have a pay rise when you got the waiting list down because I like many other have been waiting over two years for an appointment. I was offered one but you guessed it because of strikes it got cancelled and I’m on the waiting list again

ronib

Casdon thank you for your clear reply. So do you know how many hours count as full time?

I wouldn’t embarrass the retired midwife by naming her!

Yes, if full time NHS they work a basic 37.5 hours per week, split over direct care sessions which are 4 hours (I.e. clinics, ward rounds, theatre etc.) and non-clinical, teaching, support activities etc. so 10 sessions would effectively be full time Monday-Friday, but additional evening sessions, weekend sessions and on call are paid above the contract hours.

The lowest paid junior doctors earn the same hourly rate as a barista. This is an B appalling state of affairs. After years of training then the responsibility they take on, they deserve to be highly paid.

Yes I support them. More and more are leaving this country hence the shortage of Drs.
They are making life and death decisions daily.
They also have to pay professional fees each year. Who should be paid more a Doctor or footballer?

Why are we expecting Dr’s to know as much as google! They do years of studying and know when to refer to more specialist colleagues. Could you compete with a computer.
I fully support their pay action and hope they get it!
Can’t believe some people’s comments and attitudes!

A huge % of doctors work part time for the NHS and probably more time privately and in research. We only have 2 full time GPs in our surgery but at least another 8 who work 1 or 2 days a week. It would be wonderful to get back to how it used to be when you could actually see your own doctor within a week or so. If that means a large increase in their salary, to make that possible, that will surely have to be so. At the moment we have up to 6 weeks wait to see any doctor.

The NHS has never paid doctors well.

In the 1950s my father was a GP with a fairly typical size of practice, He was paid £1 (yep! 20 shillings) per patient per year, which was nowhere near enough to support our family, pay heat, light and cleaning of his consulting-room and wating-room, petrol for the car, plus repairs. Some of this were deductable expenses with regards to Income tax, but not all of it was.

As long as there was National Service, he earned extra doing Medical Boards. When these were discontinued, he did extra work as Police Surgeon. He had a 60 hour working week, often more.

All this makes me feel that if young hospital doctors are asking for a 35% increase, they are being very moderate indeed in their demands. I hope they get their raise.

My mother worked too, much to the disgust of the practice who felt a doctor's wife should not be running a business from the family home. It was her only option, as she answered the practice phone - day and night.

My father had a weekend off once every six weeks and a fortnight's summer holiday, just for the record.

Goodness, no one is saying bankers etc shouldn’t be well paid, and yes in our western economy, where we don’t really manufacture “stuff” anymore we really do rely on our financial services to keep our economy going… I’d argue the fact about “tax-payers” money though as tax-payers money was used to bail ou at least two consumer banks, albeit it was re-paid and sub-prime mortgages and acquisitions by banks had a huge impact on our financial services and economy.

Yes, they are indeed needed, valued and those generating the most profits quite rightly taking a share personally.

However, without our health this is meaningless and yes public sector workers do need to be held accountable for the “public-purse” - it’s quite sad that those making the most income for our country appear to be held in higher esteem than our health givers and educators - as I stated before I’m with the junior doctors, nurses and teachers. This particular government has managed to find money (tax-payers) for all kinds of questionable things across the last 13 years ! Cash to the French - standing at more than £400m to date, money on useless PPP, and cash to the DUPS are just three things which spring to mind which would probably have funded the rises for our deserving NHS staff and teachers for at least the next two years. Still the very recent budget shows us where their priorities lie !

Having just done a little research it appears that 'Junior' doctors are paid anything between £29,384 and £58,398 p.a., and this after 7 years training! Would you be satisfied with this when a typical Tesco Manager's salary is £29,699 per year? I certainly wouldn't, particularly when you think of the hours they put in and the stress they are under, especially at present.

Personally I think they are worth every penny, and don't forget, if we have a serious accident, we'd be unlikely to survive without these wonderfully dedicated people, whereas a Tesco Manager would be unlikely to save you.

As for 'Googling' GrammyGrammy, well you're certainly free to do that, and if anyone else thinks the same way, then please go ahead and do so, but I don't give much for your chances!

Junior doctors on approx £14/hour - that's appalling. They work incredibly long hours and are saving people's lives. The same goes for nurses and other medical staff, ambulance drivers, etc. Government must increase all their pay before they all up sticks and move to countries that pay a decent wage. Footballers earn obscene amounts of money. Why?