How do you feel about the freeze on your tax threshold and on some benefits paying for giveaway to the wealthiest 1%?

DaisyAnne

Facts do matter. However, that wasn't what I was asking. You both believe you understand the facts GSM and WWM2. Yet, from what we read, you are likely to vote for two different parties with contrasting and irreconcilable views. This can only be because your perspectives and those are based on your feelings, not facts.

Many people will vote on those feelings alone. However much you could try to beat people up on GN for not using your preferred facts, it will not change their feelings about what is right and what is wrong from their personal perspective. They each have the same number of votes as you do - 1. Many people will vote in the next election simply by using their feelings about whether the last 13 Tory years have left them better or worse off. That makes "feelings" important, possibly as important or more important, in an election as facts are.

Not sure how you glean that from my very short post to gsm
😄

You are suggesting that people do not pay attention to manifestos, or to the leadership debates we now have, but merely look back?

Germanshepherdsmum

You are suggesting that people do not pay attention to manifestos, or to the leadership debates we now have, but merely look back?

recent general election results, not to mention the referendum would indeed indicate that people do not pay attention to manifestos, do not read all sides of the press to get a balanced view. Those who finally admit that the Tories have been a disaster for the majority of the population will excuse voting for them again by saying that 'they are all as bad'.

I disagree. People are influenced by what they have seen and heard in the run up to elections and the referendum but most are, hopefully, possessed of a mind of their own and place their own interpretation on such things, albeit frequently a biased interpretation.

Apparently I will be £11 better off per year according to the calculator.

Germanshepherdsmum

You are suggesting that people do not pay attention to manifestos, or to the leadership debates we now have, but merely look back?

I'm not sure what the question is GSM. Sorry.

Historically, have parties actually honoured their manifestos to the letter or used 'unforseen circumstances' to deviate?

Whitewavemark2

DaisyAnne

Facts do matter. However, that wasn't what I was asking. You both believe you understand the facts GSM and WWM2. Yet, from what we read, you are likely to vote for two different parties with contrasting and irreconcilable views. This can only be because your perspectives and those are based on your feelings, not facts.

Many people will vote on those feelings alone. However much you could try to beat people up on GN for not using your preferred facts, it will not change their feelings about what is right and what is wrong from their personal perspective. They each have the same number of votes as you do - 1. Many people will vote in the next election simply by using their feelings about whether the last 13 Tory years have left them better or worse off. That makes "feelings" important, possibly as important or more important, in an election as facts are.

Not sure how you glean that from my very short post to gsm
😄

Most of that comment was not about you WWM2. Did you feel it should have been? It was about people in general; the mass of voters who never come near GN. The only comment about you was to suggest you and GSM would vote for diametrically opposed parties, while both believing you understand the "facts".

Are you saying that you will not be voting for parties that are usually seen as opposites? Are you telling me you are aware that your interpretation of the facts may be wrong - that would be a first from either of you

DaisyAnne is right in my view about it coming down to feelings.Few people are aware of allthe facts about political parties and the policies, but feel a certain way about them and so vote with the gut.

Isn't it the facts that cause the feelings? If you keep up with the news and politics and often have negative feelings about one party or another you are unlikely to vote for the party that makes you have those
negative uncomfortable feelings.

I suspect that wwm and I want different things from government DaisyAnne, hence our support for different parties.

Not really AGAA4 as most people don’t keep up with news and politics.
Most just feel a certain way about a political party.
Sad but true 😄

I don’t think it’s the facts that cause the feelings AGA, but the very negative spin that is everywhere. In that respect I find GN quite depressing. For instance today a poster was saying they will only be £x pa better off with the pension increase due to rising costs - well isn’t that better than not having the increase, or being £x pa worse off?

Germanshepherdsmum

I suspect that wwm and I want different things from government DaisyAnne, hence our support for different parties.

So you are saying that, whatever the facts, the two of you have different feelings about how the issues should be addressed?

That is exactly what I am suggesting happens all over the country.

Views perhaps in my case rather than feelings, which seems rather more emotional and indefinite. I can’t speak for wwm. I know what I want from government rather than have feelings about it. wwm is I think a socialist - I’m not and never have been.

Unfortunately many people who would probably better off if they voted Labour chose to vote Tory because they believe the lies told them in the right wing press or because they consider that they've moved up in the world and the Tories are the right people to vote for.

Yes indeed. There is an old saying about the trees of the forest voting for the axe with a wooden handle because they have been convinced it is one of them.

Germanshepherdsmum

Views perhaps in my case rather than feelings, which seems rather more emotional and indefinite. I can’t speak for wwm. I know what I want from government rather than have feelings about it. wwm is I think a socialist - I’m not and never have been.

Views and feelings are the same things. Ideally, the "facts" would determine your opinion. However, those with strong political views can start with a bias about what is right and then only see the world from that perspective.

If you are extreme in your political view and are not aware of or cannot admit, even to yourself, that bias, it will always build systematic error into your perception of facts. We now teach quite young children to improve their skills at avoiding bias while interpreting findings.

Many are not bothered whether others are convinced by their "facts" and are quite happy to vote reflecting what they "feel". To me, to some extent that feels more honest than the biased interpretation of the extremely politicised. After all, it is their vote.

I think it's disgusting. I believe they could have just applied it to medical staff, in order to encourage older medical staff to stay on, but instead it will assist all high earners, including very wealthy people.

I am disgusted by this government. We know they are desperate to keep people in work but they seem unable to see that rewarding those who already have the most is not a good look. Their sudden concern about childcare is also false. Do they care? I don't think so.

Eloethan

I think it's disgusting. I believe they could have just applied it to medical staff, in order to encourage older medical staff to stay on, but instead it will assist all high earners, including very wealthy people.

Hear hear. This is what came out very clearly last night in any questions R4. (and it was an interesting divided audience,

but the very first question was from a Conservative Voter who was disgusted by the 1% for the richest?

Repays a listen to, all those supporting the 1% - Hunt, you are in danger of losing support for your own party if you carry on like this.

who can believe for a moment that Hunt could not have found a way to coax some doctors back into the NHS except by making ALL the rich richer, whilst not addressing the poorest or indeed addressing the needs of the NHS - and did you hear one single mention of the Care System? I didn't.

to be fair, a million lifetime allowance was never very much. Any good pension company would be investing a pension plan to get maximum returns. LTA does not include state pension

We need to keep our high earners and the incentives that will encourage consultants to stay in the job. This was a very good decision. Not everyone who has a million in their pension pot is `rich` these days. Those days have long gone.

Germanshepherdsmum

I don’t think it’s the facts that cause the feelings AGA, but the very negative spin that is everywhere. In that respect I find GN quite depressing. For instance today a poster was saying they will only be £x pa better off with the pension increase due to rising costs - well isn’t that better than not having the increase, or being £x pa worse off?

yes there is an awful lot of negativity on GN

Wth these stealth tax grabs there is no incentive for someone who has taken early retirement in the 50s to go back into paid employment. Rather than being hammered by the tax man I would like to bet that quite a lot of these apparently "economically inactive" people have developed a cash in hand side hustle for a few hundred a month. I know people with a nice little earner car booting. Difficult to prove that they are not simply selling their own excess "stuff" that they collected or inherited over the years.

What ‘stealth tax grabs’ are you referring to biglouis?
People working for cash and not declaring their income are guilty of tax evasion. If I knew of someone doing that I wouldn’t hesitate to report them to HMRC.