Boris Johnson

You’re right, that’s the point Greta. Whataboutery detracts from lies, minimisation, deflection and bad behaviour by the PM. He seems to have led a heavy drinking culture. No surprise there

Surely it's irrelevant how many 'ordinary' people broke lockdown rules. If we continue to refer to this we are in fact
excusing Boris Johnson & Co.

If you're not prepared to back up your assertions with some attempt at quantifying how many people 'broke the rules', that's fine by me,*Oreo*. It just doesn't really help to validate what you are claiming.

Oreo I'm with Maizie on this. Your opinion is that many or very many people disobeyed the rules. It is just your opinion - you may not be an investigative journalist but it shouldn't take you very long to find some facts and figures.

I don't know anyone who broke the rules. Everyone I know was very careful to self isolate and only go out to shop or visit doctors and pharmacists. None of us wanted to catch covid.

I remember posting in the the first few months of the pandemic (March or April) about long covid. I'd read an article in the Guardian about young people suffering from it. The examples given had previously been very healthy, exercised regularly and so on. One was a young doctor who could not walk up the stairs in his home without great difficulty. This was in the early days. So, thinking that people might not read the Guardian I suggested that GNers might like to warn their children or grandchildren about long covid and the response I got was quite negative.

We now know better.

MaizieD
I think you were the poster not really believing reports of big wedding parties.
You also seem to be a demanding poster.
What percentage ? What am I, an investigative journalist?
The true figure will never be known of those who broke lockdown rules as most went unreported.
And yeah, it is irrelevant to the Johnson case, but as quite a few posters on here seem to think there were few who broke the rules it was worth pointing out that plenty did.
End of discussion as far as I’m concerned.😄

That doesn’t detract from the Boris fiasco in any way.I am simply saying that many not just a few people broke rules at the time both in small and big ways.

So, Oreo, out of the 60million+ population of the UK, what percentage would you say broke the rules? Using the news reports and anecdotal evidence you have. So, for example, how many 'massive weddings' involving how many people and what percentage of 60+ million would that represent? Just as a matter of interest.

And, bearing that 60+ million figure in mind, what figure would you place on 'many'?

I know this is actually quite irrelevant to the Johnson case as he was in the unique position of having written the rules, explaining them to the population almost daily on TV and telling them that it was absolutely vital that the rules were followed. I don't think that actually applies to most of the other rule breakers.. (apart from his close aides and advisors)

One more go then I give up😄
I agree with what many others say on here regards Boris and number ten parties and that as the government you have to lead from the front.
If anyone actually reads my posts they would see that.
My point was saying that so many on here say that they don’t know anyone who broke lockdown rules, one poster even denying the truth of all the weddings that got busted and other gatherings that were reported on the news, some with footage of the events.
That doesn’t detract from the Boris fiasco in any way.I am simply saying that many not just a few people broke rules at the time both in small and big ways.

So true Dickens and you see it all the time.

Dickens a great and necessary post.

Excellent post Dickens.

The Daily Mail excels at teaching these responses, Dickens

M0nica

^Am all for taking Boris to the cleaners but had to point out that quite a lot of the nation were not the saints that all these GN members are.^

It is not a question of what other people do. It is the simple fact that if you lay down rules for other people and punish those who break them, then you must, yourself, obey the rules meticulously, or accept the punishment that goes with breaking them. and as a general rule most people would expect the punishment of the rule breaking rule maker to receive a more severe punishment.

When you want to defend the indefensible, the MO is to disparage / belittle those who won't.

"Johnson is a known liar"... "all politicians tell lies"

"He broke the rules he imposed"... "lots of other people did too"

"I didn't break the rules"... "we can't all be as holier-than-thou as you"

"Honesty and integrity in Parliament are important"... "there are more serious things going on"

And if Johnson is sanctioned and disappears into the political wilderness, it will, of course, have been a "witch-hunt" orchestrated by those with "an axe to grind".

That's how you invalidate people's genuine concerns without ever addressing the issues involved.

Thanks Grantanow I hadn't heard of that before. I'll look it up!

volver3

For England? 😖

Yes, volver3. I was quoting Leo Amery on 3 Sept 1939 in a famous Commons debate.

Am all for taking Boris to the cleaners but had to point out that quite a lot of the nation were not the saints that all these GN members are.

It is not a question of what other people do. It is the simple fact that if you lay down rules for other people and punish those who break them, then you must, yourself, obey the rules meticulously, or accept the punishment that goes with breaking them. and as a general rule most people would expect the punishment of the rule breaking rule maker to receive a more severe punishment.

Oreo 'Many people stayed within lockdown rules but OMG very many sure didn’t.'

NO, the vast majority stayed within lockdown rules, but a very tiny minority of idiots did not. This is totally irrelevant anyhow. We are talking here about those who made the rules, imposed them on others (quite rightly and for the best of reasons)- but decided it didn't apply to them- and their head honcho LIED to us all about it. THAT is the issue, not that a few (unprintable) did not.

Honestly, I don’t know anyone who broke the rules. My village was like a ghost town during that awful time.

Oreo

Am all for taking Boris to the cleaners but had to point out that quite a lot of the nation were not the saints that all these GN members are.

...but had to point out that quite a lot of the nation were not the saints that all these GN members are.

Why the snark?

And we know that some broke the rules - the media often reported the fact - or their version of the facts.

I didn't - not because I'm saintly but because I didn't want to catch the damned virus, or spread it if I unknowingly had it.

I felt sorry for young people who had to curtail their normal activities, and for those who were lonely and isolated. Even more sorry for families who couldn't meet up - children and the elderly in particular.

I believed that isolating from groups acted in the same way as a 'fire-break'. It made sense. And as a CEV, I simply did not want to take unnecessary risks.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who simply followed the rules, hoping that they would be short-lived and that we could get back to some semblance of normality by doing so.

... so I'm a 'saint'?

Johnson is a reasonably intelligent man, expensively educated. Yet he decided to consult his PR gurus, not his legal team. If he intended to tell Parliament the truth about whether the laws were broken or not on his watch, then the lawyers were the people to ask. I would expect someone trying to construct a cover-up to ask for PR help.

I would also see this lying cover-up as egregious when repeated, over and over, by Johnson, who then failed to correct Hansard in a reasonable time.

Whether other people broke the rules, whether we could not attend a funeral, comfort relatives, etc., is irrelevant in this instance. The question is did the then PM lie to Parliament and, if he did, was it intentional?

If he gave a PR answer and avoided even knowing the legal one, then he did, and it was intentional.

Am all for taking Boris to the cleaners but had to point out that quite a lot of the nation were not the saints that all these GN members are.

HousePlantQueen

Johnson's behaviour was unacceptable.
Johnson lied to the HoC
Johnson has been tried by parliamentary procedure.
Nobody, but nobody is above the rule of law.even if a few deluded individuals think that getting Brexit done gives you carte blanche to break the law, even after you set it.
The members of the committee were doing their job.
You paid for Johnson's defence, so did I, but unwillingly.
I did not break lockdown rules.
Stop judging the rest of us based on what you find acceptable, most intelligent people know a liar when we see one and care a great deal about democracy.

Who are you talking to?
If it’s me, use the quote facility.
I’ve been clear all along, Boris Johnson and all in number ten who had parties or get togethers were wrong just as all those who partied and got together in the country were wrong.
Being the government who set the rules made Boris and pals even more wrong tbh.
Many people stayed within lockdown rules but OMG very many sure didn’t.

HousePlantQueen

Johnson's behaviour was unacceptable.
Johnson lied to the HoC
Johnson has been tried by parliamentary procedure.
Nobody, but nobody is above the rule of law.even if a few deluded individuals think that getting Brexit done gives you carte blanche to break the law, even after you set it.
The members of the committee were doing their job.
You paid for Johnson's defence, so did I, but unwillingly.
I did not break lockdown rules.
Stop judging the rest of us based on what you find acceptable, most intelligent people know a liar when we see one and care a great deal about democracy.

This and this Iam64 Fri 24-Mar-23 21:44:01
I am Spartacus too.

Surely those who make the rules should lead by example?

I too am Spartacus. I didn’t break lockdown rules, neither did my family, friends or neighbours. I’m not ‘holier than thou’ and my adult children and their large friendship groups are known to live a party (yes one with alcohol). They didn’t do this during lockdown.
The issue isn’t whataboutery. It’s whether Johnson lied. He did and will continue to so. It’s likely he believes what he says. That doesn’t mean he isn’t lying.

sandelf

Such a waste of time and money (all these folk earn a king's ransom). I know SO many people who ignored the guidelines - 'you're only 70 once' etc that I really don't care any more. There is useful and important work they could be doing.

But are you not missing the point? The people you know who ignored the guidelines were not, presumably, those in positions of power who imposed them on the nation.

The committee is asking whether Johnson deliberately misled parliament. Not whether he attended the parties. The CPC exists to look at possible contempt of Parliament, and breaches of privilege. I think that's fairly important - when individuals hold positions of power.