Going after the economically disadvantaged!

Katie59

All the small business I know work much longer hours than employees, 60 hours is normal often more, Not only that they are risking their wealth and working capital, in many cases it is their house. At the end of the day they often earn less than their employees do and would be better off getting a “proper job”.

Agreed. And certainly true in my family.

Germanshepherdsmum

*Caleo*, are you seriously suggesting that ‘the establishment’ should include people on benefits?

Surely the “establishment” is all of us, it’s a democracy we vote for representatives, those on benefits have the same say. It can never be more than a balance of who pays taxes and who receives benefits

Nail on the head, GSM!

Yes, the political establishment ,the religious establishment, the monarchy ,and the aristocracy should include people on benefits.

Caleo

Nail on the head, GSM!

Yes, the political establishment ,the religious establishment, the monarchy ,and the aristocracy should include people on benefits.

There is no bar to those on low income going into politics, religion or any other profession, become a local councilor and change the system if enough others do you will.

Exactly so Katie - but an MPs salary would exclude them from all means tested benefits. All people of pensionable age who, or whose spouses, have paid sufficient NI contributions are, of course, on benefits - the SP.
Quite how the monarchy and aristocracy are going to include people on other benefits rather escapes me. Cloud cuckoo land.

Caleo

Nail on the head, GSM!

Yes, the political establishment ,the religious establishment, the monarchy ,and the aristocracy should include people on benefits.

Of course there are people in all walks of life who earn less than others or less than acceptable. What is your point?

Katie, I don't understand all the workings of social mobility, but it does seem that the Conservatives don't approve of it .

Unless people on benefits are properly educated, housed, fed, and employed, they and their children will lack realistic opportunity to be legislators. If your house is full of black mould you would be too busy keeping your kids alive to have energy to spare to be a politician.

You might, though, Caleo, provide your children with the impetus to get on in life. I came from a working class family, had a state education and studied in my own time, while working full time, to become a solicitor. I became a partner in a big City firm. One of my mother’s sayings was ‘there’s no such word as can’t’. And I vote Conservative. Don’t say the Conservatives don’t approve of social mobility.

Caleo

Katie, I don't understand all the workings of social mobility, but it does seem that the Conservatives don't approve of it .

Unless people on benefits are properly educated, housed, fed, and employed, they and their children will lack realistic opportunity to be legislators. If your house is full of black mould you would be too busy keeping your kids alive to have energy to spare to be a politician.

There is no argument that everyone should be not living in decent accommodation, enough to eat and keep warm and that’s pretty basic, in theory the benefit system aims to do that.
There are always those that fall through the net, every government has had this problem and don’t get the help they need.

It’s nothing to do with the establishment, or the Monarchy or the aristocracy, that’s just excuses when/if Starmer gets elected there will be changes, don’t expect much because he still has to balance the economy.

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Daisy Anne, you misunderstand GSM's ability to be objective .

GSM, it seems some family cultures, possibly yours, buck the trend.

Katie I won't pretend the establishment of capitalism has not benefitted me and mine. But I have never been forced to live on the streets.

Whitewavemark wrote:

"There are no altruistic businesses with regard to their employees, unless the profits and salaries are shared. The owners will never be willing to do so as greed is the primary motivation."

If you think human nature is not biologically greedy then you are too optimistic .

DaisyAnne

Germanshepherdsmum

You might, though, Caleo, provide your children with the impetus to get on in life. I came from a working class family, had a state education and studied in my own time, while working full time, to become a solicitor. I became a partner in a big City firm. One of my mother’s sayings was ‘there’s no such word as can’t’. And I vote Conservative. Don’t say the Conservatives don’t approve of social mobility.

You seem to like to tell us what an "amazing" person you are*GSM*, how well you have succeeded against the odds and with no one to help.

I end up wondering why it all sounds a bit over-egged and smacking of insecurity. Perhaps it's all to do with how you have learned to measure success.

That was nasty. I’m not the slightest bit insecure. I have never claimed to be amazing, because I’m not. I’m an ordinary p

Person who worked damned hard, yes against the odds and without help. I’m merely trying to say that you can instil a work ethic and desire to succeed in your children and that some Conservative voters not only approve of social mobility and want to see more of it, they are personal examples of it.

When say it’s ‘over-egged’, you imply that I’m lying or embroidering the truth. I don’t lie. You come across as envious of success and what it brings.

Caleo

GSM, it seems some family cultures, possibly yours, buck the trend.

A child isn’t born with a work ethic and a determination to succeed. It has to learn those things for itself, preferably by example. An example it won’t be set in a home where generations haven’t worked.

It may help you to understand my desire to achieve, DA, if I explain that my father was a clever man who could have gone far if he hadn’t gone blind in his late teens. It must have been a huge frustration for him. I wanted him to be proud of me. He was.

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If you’re saying I’m smug (which I’m not but I have always been proud of what I achieved by myself and make no apology for that), then evidently not as I didn’t go to university.

Germanshepherdsmum

Person who worked damned hard, yes against the odds and without help. I’m merely trying to say that you can instil a work ethic and desire to succeed in your children and that some Conservative voters not only approve of social mobility and want to see more of it, they are personal examples of it.

When say it’s ‘over-egged’, you imply that I’m lying or embroidering the truth. I don’t lie. You come across as envious of success and what it brings.

I'm sorry you think what I said was nasty. More than anything, I feel sorry for you. Why would I be envious? Everyone I know works or has worked "damned hard", often for much less than the picture you paint of your rewards. Some live their lives against great odds, and some with a lot of luck.

I think I remember you said your mother helped with childcare. Why can't you count that blessing? Not everyone has that help. Some even have to add parent care at a time when they already have the sort of difficulties you faced.

You have enough talent to become a solicitor. For some people, no matter how hard they work, that will not happen. For some, they will be lucky to even be able to become independent. No, I was not saying you lied or embroidered what you said. I can see you are telling your life as you see it. However, I am sorry you cannot see the good things and people in your life.

I have said as little about myself as possible. Personally, I don't think it is appropriate to post our lives online. I have been so lucky in my life and would love to be the "luck" in others' lives. I have many much-loved people around me and have been given a chance to develop because of the inspiration and encouragement offered by those I have met. There have been bumps in the road, but I don't know anyone who wouldn't say that. I have found that some of the most inspiring people have often had the biggest "bumps". I wish for your sake you could feel more satisfied. It is a wise person who appreciates those in life who have influenced their path. Those around us do in everyone's life. None of us will have got where we are on our own.

Fantastic post DaisyAnne.

GrannyGravy13

Any share profit or dividends paid over and above £2,000 are now taxed at the going rate.

No NIC is paid, then again nobody over retirement age pays NIC.

You are being disingenuous here methinks.

Assuming that you wish to benefit from the tax reliefs available to you, here is a back of the fag packet scenario

As a company director:
Salary 9,600 tax £ Nil
Dividend 50,000 tax £6,273
NIC (employee contribution) £848

As an employee
Salary £59,600 tax £11272.00
NIC (employee contribution) £2,494

The tax rates on the dividends 8.75% basic rate (compared with 20% on earnings) and 33.75% higher rate (compared with
40% on earnings.

I didn’t have children when I was studying. Not until some years after I qualified. I have never underestimated the help my mother gave me after my son was born. To counterbalance that, as you talk about ‘people’, I had an abusive husband for almost a quarter of a century. Nevertheless I am entirely satisfied with the life I have now, though you seem to think I’m not, for some inexplicable reason.

My post came about purely because of the accusation that Conservatives don’t believe in social mobility - an illustration that such a statement is entirely false.

If you think human nature is not biologically greedy then you are too optimistic .

Not “greedy” because if we didn’t have enterprise nobody would pay taxes to help those less fortunate.

I would call it “ambition” the wish for a better life and to do better for your family.