Junior doctors strike

I understand foxie because my daughter is in New Zealand, thanks to pay being held down, Covid stresses, and last but certainly not least, the negative vibes she felt through the media and sometimes patients, about doctors, especially GPs. She’s not actually paid a lot more but she gets paid about the same for far fewer hours. She leaves work at 4.30 most afternoons. 5.00 is a late afternoon. There are problems in the New Zealand healthcare system too, but doctors are treated with respect! She’d like to come home but dreads the thought of working in the NHS again. She follows the news over here and is on several internet groups for British doctors and is fully aware of the problems over here.
The key phrase in my post is;

doctors are treated with respect in New Zealand.

I hope she’s not reading this thread on Gransnet.

I understand where the Junior Doctors are coming from, but I can't understand why apparently clever people are expecting so much. 35% may be their starting demand but it gives an indication of what they expect to end up with. I doubt they would drop as low as 10% so if the government agreed on say 20% then the teachers unions would demand the same. And nurses, the police, the fire brigade, etc, etc. All are worth at least that. All have had their real earning cut over many years. But so have many in the private sector without powerful unions behind them. Especially the lower paid, many of whom are still very important cogs (although 20% of minimum wage is much more affordable).

How is it to be funded?

Yes of course and it's me moaning! I'm just upset that she'll be so far away. I'll get over it!

Thing isFoxie your daughter must have known what she was getting into when she started her career? If not then she is the guilty one for not finding out as much as she could before starting.
Many people work very long hours in bad conditions for much less pay and have to travel long distances .I know two junior doctors both in their late 20's both female both working a long distance from home .
I suppose the saving grace here is they dont pay for parking which is a godsend as one of them has a dad who is terminally ill and sometimes comes home between shifts to visit him so her car is essential.As I pointed out or junior doctors aren't on strike they have been balloted and we'll find the result in May ...our (the SNPis a mess!) government actually TALKS to the unions maybe WM government could try doing that.

ronib life is about a lot more than work and money. Family, relationships, children, friends, life outside work are also very important. DD is not married, in a current relationship or have children but it wouldn't matter if she did, the situation would still be the same. If you can't understand the implications of being constantly "on the move" and not in control of something as important as your geographical location, I am not going to try to explain it to you. It's OK when you are young but when you have spent 7 years at 2 different uni's (DD was a graduate entry medic) and you are in your 8th year of training, I think most people would like rather more autonomy. She is not that motivated by money but she does want to progress in her career so no doubt she will just suck it up but the point is, others won't.

foxie48 but my delivery man highlighted for me that he was stuck in a difficult financial situation with probably little opportunity to double or treble his income. Surely junior doctors can understand that there’s an end in sight to economic misery if not working conditions?

I'm pretty fed up as she'll be a lot further away than she is now and with her shifts I'll see even less of her. She could, of course, go to Australia or New Zealand to finish off her training and I wouldn't blame her but I would be very sad.

Ronib with all respect to your delivery man, this thread is about the Junior Doctors strike and why so many are prepared to strike.

foxie48 I am not downplaying the problems and logistics that your daughter is facing but my Ocado delivery man today told me how very difficult life is becoming for his family as he has 3 children to support and an electricity bill of £388 without gas. He expressed the view that we’re being taken for a ride and someone is making mega bucks out of it.

So eventually, your daughter will find the struggle to be a specialist is over and she will be well compensated one would hope. But what could I say to my delivery man?

This is a concrete example of the treatment that Junior doctors have to put up with to become a consultant. My daughter has just received an offer for the last part of her specialist training. Her first placement, which is for a year, is 180 miles away from where she has lived and put down roots for the past four years. Following that first year she will have another 3 years of training but she doesn't know where except it will be somewhere within the deanery, which is a huge area. She will have to find and pay for her own accommodation although she already has a house, which she might be able to commute from for some placements. She is in a specialism which has huge shortages but there is still huge competition for training places so she'll take what she's been offered. fwiw she has already spent a year travelling for well over an hour each way on top of 12/13 hour shifts to her ST3 job. She couldn't use public transport because timings didn't fit her shifts and there was no parking for junior doctors at the hospital and usually no food available when she was on nights. And people wonder why junior doctors get fed up.

I thought the 'do no harm' thing was basically saying that they wouldn't use their medical knowledge to actively or deliberately kill or hurt anyone, so in effect covering themselves against accidental damage.

I had a medical procedure done yesterday, and the list of unlikely but potential dangers I needed to be told before I could consent was extensive. I trusted that if any of these things happened it would be by mistake, and that the surgeon would do all in her power to ensure that I was ok, but even though it was a relatively small diagnostic procedure, she was in a position of great power, as I was sedated and unable to fight back. Had she wanted to do harm, she could have done, which is why they promise not to do so knowingly.

Freya5

Siope

Primrose53, different universities have different (or no) oaths. I think the closest any comes to ‘first do no harm’ is ‘I will utterly reject harm and mischief’.

They don’t say ‘first do no harm’ because, to quote oncologist Clive Peedell

‘The idea of “First do no harm” is absolute garbage from a medical point of view, anyway.
A surgeon’s incision causes harm; an oncologist’s drugs and radiation causes harm; a dermatologist’s steroids cause harm etc, etc.’

A surgeons incision, is not doing harm, it is part of the process to help heal. Now if he'd just incised, then walked away, that would be harm ,for goodness sakes.

You may think that Freya but personally, if the doctors don't I would prefer to give their opinion greater weight - unless, of course, you have all their training and knowledge.

maddyone

And to a great extent, that means retired people, who will have more chronic illnesses and conditions that need to be managed. Often their income is lower, and unless they are seriously wealthy, they are unlikely to be able to afford private treatment.

Yes. I think that a lot of people seriously underestimate the cost of private medicine, and think that because they can afford to pay an initial consultation fee of £250 or whatever and then move to the top of the NHS queue they will be ok. That isn't private medicine - it is just queue jumping. The actual cost of treatment is eye-wateringly expensive, with tests running into hundreds and surgery into many thousands of pounds, and of course there is no saying that one operation will be the last one. A couple could clean out their savings on getting a couple of joints replaced each, and then find that one of them needs heart surgery and there's nothing left in the kitty. What then?

And to a great extent, that means retired people, who will have more chronic illnesses and conditions that need to be managed. Often their income is lower, and unless they are seriously wealthy, they are unlikely to be able to afford private treatment.

Well let’s hope it’s not the US system because if so millions of U.K. citizens will be seriously disadvantaged.

Those who are poorer and sicker and with chronic illnesses just for a start.

MaizieD

LRavenscroft

The whole system is now upside down. When the NHS first started it was a model for its age and supported everything from cradle to grave. However, the needs of society have changed. Procedures and surgeries have been introduced over the past 75 years which would never even have been thought of in 1948. Also, a lot of people use the free doctor's visits for things that could probably be dealt with by a chemist or even sat out at home. Rules and legislation and practices have become so tight that since covid anyone in the medical profession is stretched beyond capacity. With an ever increasing population, lack of patient knowledge etc it is just going to get worse. Are we going to go for an American model? A European model? Something has to change. The junior doctors' strike is only the tip of the ice berg for the future.

Are you suggesting that the model of financing needs to be changed, or just the way people use the NHS?

Hi! Neither really. These are just my thoughts from experience, friends' & relatives' stories and the news. It just doesn't look as if it is going to get any better soon unless some workable system is put in place.

Siope

Primrose53, different universities have different (or no) oaths. I think the closest any comes to ‘first do no harm’ is ‘I will utterly reject harm and mischief’.

They don’t say ‘first do no harm’ because, to quote oncologist Clive Peedell

‘The idea of “First do no harm” is absolute garbage from a medical point of view, anyway.
A surgeon’s incision causes harm; an oncologist’s drugs and radiation causes harm; a dermatologist’s steroids cause harm etc, etc.’

A surgeons incision, is not doing harm, it is part of the process to help heal. Now if he'd just incised, then walked away, that would be harm ,for goodness sakes.

I meant that with a growing population and the way we’re losing doctors, and the dissatisfaction of other medical staff, the whole thing needs looking at. More money, higher wages, a lot more doctors trained in the UK.

LRavenscroft

The whole system is now upside down. When the NHS first started it was a model for its age and supported everything from cradle to grave. However, the needs of society have changed. Procedures and surgeries have been introduced over the past 75 years which would never even have been thought of in 1948. Also, a lot of people use the free doctor's visits for things that could probably be dealt with by a chemist or even sat out at home. Rules and legislation and practices have become so tight that since covid anyone in the medical profession is stretched beyond capacity. With an ever increasing population, lack of patient knowledge etc it is just going to get worse. Are we going to go for an American model? A European model? Something has to change. The junior doctors' strike is only the tip of the ice berg for the future.

Are you suggesting that the model of financing needs to be changed, or just the way people use the NHS?

I agree that the whole situation is extremely concerning.

The whole system is now upside down. When the NHS first started it was a model for its age and supported everything from cradle to grave. However, the needs of society have changed. Procedures and surgeries have been introduced over the past 75 years which would never even have been thought of in 1948. Also, a lot of people use the free doctor's visits for things that could probably be dealt with by a chemist or even sat out at home. Rules and legislation and practices have become so tight that since covid anyone in the medical profession is stretched beyond capacity. With an ever increasing population, lack of patient knowledge etc it is just going to get worse. Are we going to go for an American model? A European model? Something has to change. The junior doctors' strike is only the tip of the ice berg for the future.

Primrose53, different universities have different (or no) oaths. I think the closest any comes to ‘first do no harm’ is ‘I will utterly reject harm and mischief’.

They don’t say ‘first do no harm’ because, to quote oncologist Clive Peedell

‘The idea of “First do no harm” is absolute garbage from a medical point of view, anyway.
A surgeon’s incision causes harm; an oncologist’s drugs and radiation causes harm; a dermatologist’s steroids cause harm etc, etc.’

Besides the fact that pledging the Hippocratic Oath is not compulsory, was probably not an accurate translation from Greek anyway, but has been revised in some Medical Schools, there is no compulsion to “pledge” it.

However ethically I don’t believe doctors can possibly be responsible for “doing no harm” when they have worked very long hours in stressful conditions and are and short staffed, unless they are super human.

Siope

There’s no legal requirement for doctors in the UK to take any oath, let alone the Hippocratic one. Some graduation ceremonies have oaths, some do not. Some doctors attend graduation ceremonies, some do not.

And no doctor pledges ‘first do no harm’ as that would seriously restrict the treatment they could offer, from steroids to surgery.

Nonetheless, if we assume healthcare staff are focused on helping patients to access good healthcare, then they have to strike. If they do not achieve change (including better pay), waiting lists will grow, patients will continue to suffer and die unnecessarily, and eventually the poor will have limited or no access to treatment - just look at NHS dentistry for the model.

Dr Hilary Jones was on TV last week and did say there is no longer a Hippocratic Oath but they do still pledge to do no harm.

maddyone

Shropshirelass

Doctors take the hypocratic oath, in my mind strike action goes against this. They chose this profession with everything it brings with it. I cannot support any strike action by any health care workers whatsoever. Regardless of what they say, they are putting lives at risk going against the very heart of their work to look after people and save lives. Yes, the should be paid a lot more and working conditions improved but strikes are destructive and help no-one. Their workload will be much higher when they do return and then they will be moaning about that I suppose!.

What an ungrateful post. Doctors should just suck up poor pay and working conditions because they chose this profession apparently. NO! They should not. They should fight for fair pay and conditions. Why should doctors not be paid properly?
they will be moaning
It’s no wonder my doctor says many patients treat them with contempt.

It may not be contempt, it may just be that they have lost all sympathy for them.