Junior doctors strike

ronib

Callistemon21

^There is enough money in the economy to pay for a decently run NHS^

This
I have said that several times.

There is no will to do so.

King’s Fund points out that we spend more than the EU average on health apart from Germany, France, The Netherlands and one other country. Bit puzzling.

Amanda Pritchard insists that the Nhs delivers value for money spent - Nhs is wonderful talk to conference members for ‘we are the Nhs’ available on YouTube.

Something like 3.8 per cent uplift each year in spending? Or thereabouts…up from 1.5 per cent.

It’s beginning to feel that the Nhs needs double the amount spent on it ? Time to rethink the whole concept?

You mean letting those people without personal means to pay die?

Yeah! Great idea!

HousePlantQueen

Wyllow3

Boris Johnson, 2019

"Boris Johnson could not have been clearer in his first speech as prime minister about his intention to finally come up with a solution to one of the great policy failures of the last 20 years.

“My job is to protect you or your parents or grandparents from the fear of having to sell your home to pay for the costs of care,” he said.

“And so I am announcing now – on the steps of Downing Street – that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all, and with a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/01/promising-to-fix-social-care-could-cost-boris-johnson-dearly

I know of many people who voted Tory on the basis of this promise. I wonder how they feel now, especially with the 50% cut in funding. If these are manifesto promises, should we sue them for failure to provide as promised?

I really wish we could sue for breach of election promises.

I know we can all have good intentions that for various reasons don't happen as we wish, but why not say that all parties have to have five key promises that will be held to*? If they have measurable benchmarks which had to be independently and publicly reviewed each year and graded on a traffic light system, voters could see at a glance how they are doing. They inflict this sort of thing on schools, universities, hospitals and so on, but are not held to account themselves. It would also show voters where the priorities of the party leaders lie.

If there has been something like Covid that has interfered with their plans, they should be able to explain, but not just wave criticism aside with sweeping statements - special pleading should get a heavier touch review, and require a full audit trail and statements from all involved to show how the promise was affected by the unusual event.

*or some other predefined and measurable set of criteria - I picked 5 promises as Labour did this and the Tories copied it but made theirs 'priorities'. 5 pledges seems reasonable though. Too many would dilute the impact, and one or two would allow too much else to go to the wall.

ronib

MaizieD A health professional told me that the Nhs needs so much spent on it that it’s time to consider small charges to see a gp for example. £25 a visit was suggested.

We already spend almost 12 per cent of GDP on healthcare so to increase spending to 25 per cent of GDP seems very radical but is required.

I know you don’t see a problem with spending MaizieD but I was looking at the way think tanks approach this issue.

Would the idea be to discourage people from seeing a GP?

For many people, £25 isn't a small charge, especially if they are then given a prescription with charges of £9.65 an item.

I'm afraid it would deter some people who most definitely should be seeing a GP from making an appointment.

I can't see how that's preferable to funding GPs through general taxation.

consider small charges to see a gp for example. £25 a visit was suggested.

What about the people for whom £25 isn't a small sum?

I was in the doctor's waiting room earlier this week (nothing serious). There were little old ladies, children, people who appeared to be chronically sick, a couple of younger people, and me. (I guess I'm a little old lady ) Many of those people probably don't have £25 to spare and so they would think twice about going. So, we might want to set up a system where they get free appointments. But then setting up and running that system would cost the NHS money...vicious circle.

Its like when people complain about free prescriptions in Scotland. If we had to pay for them, the exceptions would be many and it would cost more money in the end. So just pay more tax in the first place if you can afford to pay for your prescriptions.

Countries where you pay money for a consultation have an entirely different healthcare system than us; we either change things completely to ensure care is free at the point of need, or we leave it alone. Tinkering at the edges won't help.

Your figures are distorted by the cost to the NHS of the pandemic ronib.
www.statista.com/statistics/317708/healthcare-expenditure-as-a-share-of-gdp-in-the-united-kingdom/

As the health of the population is of the highest priority, and improving health status improves GDP, why do you see spending a bigger proportion of the GDP on it as an issue?

When people haven’t even got £25 to spend on a week’s food it is not a small charge. With any “exemptions” to the charge it will become a two tier system. Look at the way dental services are being delivered (or not). People are reduced to pulling out their own teeth.

The insurance companies must be salivating at the idea of charges for NHS services being introduced.

The cost of administration of such charges would also negate any profit.

MaizieD A health professional told me that the Nhs needs so much spent on it that it’s time to consider small charges to see a gp for example. £25 a visit was suggested.

We already spend almost 12 per cent of GDP on healthcare so to increase spending to 25 per cent of GDP seems very radical but is required.

I know you don’t see a problem with spending MaizieD but I was looking at the way think tanks approach this issue.

It’s beginning to feel that the Nhs needs double the amount spent on it ?

Of course it does. Since 2010 it has had half of what it needed spent on it. In real terms it has had a big cut in income.

Time to rethink the whole concept?

I don't see why. I think it is more like time for people to stop thinking that the money spent on the NHS is being poured into a big black hole and is never seen again. I think it's time that people had some very basic understanding of what happens to money when it enters the economy.

The 'concept' that needs thinking is how a national economy actually works. Until we have this the public will mostly accept the 'we can't afford it' lie and continue to be actively suspicious of proposals to increase public spending. To the extent of it causing them to make choices as voters that actually damage their welfare and wellbeing.

frankly hard/ultra right wing people frighten me. So does the hard left.
Dickens, you’re expressing my feelings and I hope those of most posters.

Already been told my job is not as valuable as a doctor's job without me even having said what I do. I actually work with people who have addictions, mental health issues and who are suicidal - and work on a 24 hour rota basis. And whatever job a person does, if it provides value and meaning to them, it is a worthwhile job.

Callistemon21

*^There is enough money in the economy to pay for a decently run NHS^*

This
I have said that several times.

There is no will to do so.

King’s Fund points out that we spend more than the EU average on health apart from Germany, France, The Netherlands and one other country. Bit puzzling.

Amanda Pritchard insists that the Nhs delivers value for money spent - Nhs is wonderful talk to conference members for ‘we are the Nhs’ available on YouTube.

Something like 3.8 per cent uplift each year in spending? Or thereabouts…up from 1.5 per cent.

It’s beginning to feel that the Nhs needs double the amount spent on it ? Time to rethink the whole concept?

varian

You are right Dickens

I sometimes read The Telegraph on line, but generally am only allowed access to one article from time to time.

The content is invariably shocking, but nowhere near as shocking as reading the comments from readers. No more than 5% of readers comments make any kind of sense. The vast majority seem to be from swivel-eyed ultra brexit believers, indoctrinated beyond any hope of salvation.

If you've never looked at The Telegraph comments section - I warn you - it is truly scary.

If you've never looked at The Telegraph comments section - I warn you - it is truly scary.

I have - some time ago now. It's depressing. Not the opposing view, but the way it's expressed. And the misogyny is something else (or was).

MSN News (Microsoft News) is another no-go area. Again, it's not the opinion, it's the vitriol, spite and hate with which it's expressed.

Frankly, hard / ultra right-wing people frighten me. So does the hard-left, come to that...

^There is enough money in the economy to pay for a decently run NHS^

This
I have said that several times.

There is no will to do so.

nj30

I really do not agree with the junior doctors striking. Not only are lives going to be placed at risk, the lengthy wait for operations and treatment is only going to worsen. Everyone would like better pay but this is often not realistic. The government should pay them for what they are worth? Where does the government get their money from? Joe Taxpayer in the main. I certainly would not want to be paying higher taxes and NI contributions at a time when I too am feeling the pinch and having to cut back on even essentials. I have worked for over 30 years and am just grateful that I have a job - and I get paid far less than junior doctors.

Lives are being placed at risk by an economically far-right government, in a country that can afford to pay the doctors more than a plumber earns. I really can't believe that anyone thinks they are worth less!

Sunak has wasted enough of the country's money. He lost as much as Truss managed to do, by flushing money down the drain on a non-working Test and Trace debacle. Add to that unrecovered frauds by the wealthy from the handouts in Covid, and the ridiculous method of deciding who got the contracts for PPE and we can see the money is available when it suits them.

Then there is the Forty-four Days Queen's decision that the economy is a toy for the far-right to play with. This government elected a woman who nearly downed our currency and sent another £30 billion down the same drain.

There is enough money in the economy to pay for a decently run NHS

I'm sorry to say nj30 because it seems unkind, but who would value your job, or a plumbers, above what a doctor does?

We do have a problem. We have a government that thinks it is a court and can do what it wants for itself and its courtiers. We have an ex-Chancellor, now PM, who doesn't appear to be able to add up or "look after the pennies".

We are economically still sound enough because people in all walks of life work under dreadful conditions (including those trying to run SMEs). We certainly could be economically sounder if our government did not think our money was their money!

There is enough money in the economy to pay for a decently run NHS

If our doctors don't win, we will all lose. Why can't you see what will happen with no NHS?

You are right Dickens

I sometimes read The Telegraph on line, but generally am only allowed access to one article from time to time.

The content is invariably shocking, but nowhere near as shocking as reading the comments from readers. No more than 5% of readers comments make any kind of sense. The vast majority seem to be from swivel-eyed ultra brexit believers, indoctrinated beyond any hope of salvation.

If you've never looked at The Telegraph comments section - I warn you - it is truly scary.

HousePlantQueen

*It's OK for MPs to have lucrative second jobs which they do instead of their constituency work but not OK for doctors to work privately outside their contracted hours and it's perfectly acceptable to provide subsidised meals on site for MPs but not for hospital doctors*.

Absolutely this. When this is inferred by those who were happy with Johnson, king of the freeloaders, it is beyond irony.

Neither is OK.

For doctors, hours are very long already, so having a second job to work privately is just not safe. Very different.

And of course meals and a 'mess/lounge area' have to be provided on site for Junior doctors who have to work very long hours!

CoolCoco

The government aren't interested in negotiation. they hope the public will turn against doctors, nurses, ambulance staff, however I believe there is much more support for them than there is for this corrupt government.

I'd like to believe it.

But, it doesn't seem to matter how bad this particular government is, how much sleaze and corruption unfolds, how dire some of the revelations about various MPs - the failed PP equipment, Johnson's absenteeism while he enriches himself, Hancock playing the fool on reality TV - and being caught out on a Led By Donkeys scam, '30p Lee' continually berating the poor, Braverman's appalling attitude towards ASs, Truss causing havoc in the economy... people will still support them and still vote for them.

I think their strategy against the NHS strikes might well work. They are absolutely determined to hang on to power, come what may, and I don't think there is any level they will not stoop to in order to make sure that they succeed.

Grantanow

I never believe anything BoJo says and that goes for most other Tory Ministers and MPs. They are all enjoying very high salaries which have more than kept pace with inflation while not bothering too much about the rest of us. NHS staff deserve more than hollow thanks. I hope the junior doctors get a decent rise. But today at my District General Hospital there were only 7 on the picket line and none later in the day: they need to do better than that.

I'd like to have seen more too but bless them its sort of damned if they do (as in accusations of rowdy and over doing it) or too few....I hope they still got supportive car beeps. Locally people are bringing them coffee etc and a steady number of 20 or so with placards outside both hospitals, I imagine they are doing it in shifts.

Casdon

As if ronib. I used the Kings Fund regularly in my working life, and I still do - I regularly refer to articles in response to Gransnet threads too. They do produce press releases, but there’s nothing recent about the topic of this thread that I’ve seen, please post if you have found something relevant?

Casdon King’s Fund 12/4/23
Prof Sir Chris Ham The rise and decline of the Nhs in England 2000 - 20: how political failure led to the crisis in the Nhs and social care.

I never believe anything BoJo says and that goes for most other Tory Ministers and MPs. They are all enjoying very high salaries which have more than kept pace with inflation while not bothering too much about the rest of us. NHS staff deserve more than hollow thanks. I hope the junior doctors get a decent rise. But today at my District General Hospital there were only 7 on the picket line and none later in the day: they need to do better than that.

The government aren't interested in negotiation. they hope the public will turn against doctors, nurses, ambulance staff, however I believe there is much more support for them than there is for this corrupt government.

Wyllow3

That says it all, foxie48.

Yes it does indeed.

My point being of course, along with Foxie's on MP pay, that the 4 day strike has been years in the making and yet the government won't sit down and cut a deal.

Report after report in the last few years of longer and longer waiting lists for everything, crisis in A and E. Just read the desperate situations on another current GN thread on healthcare at GP level. Not overnight.

These 4 days should surprise nor shock anyone with eyes wide open.

As promised also in the Daily Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7708841/Tory-leader-promise-end-social-care-crisis.html

Wyllow3

Boris Johnson, 2019

"Boris Johnson could not have been clearer in his first speech as prime minister about his intention to finally come up with a solution to one of the great policy failures of the last 20 years.

“My job is to protect you or your parents or grandparents from the fear of having to sell your home to pay for the costs of care,” he said.

“And so I am announcing now – on the steps of Downing Street – that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all, and with a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve.”

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/01/promising-to-fix-social-care-could-cost-boris-johnson-dearly

I know of many people who voted Tory on the basis of this promise. I wonder how they feel now, especially with the 50% cut in funding. If these are manifesto promises, should we sue them for failure to provide as promised?