Another Death at Aintree

Volver I don't have a problem with there being "fewer animals" I just don't understand why you seem to make a distinction between "domesticated animals" and "wild animals" fwiw I don't have a "kitty" but I have fed a feral cat (after paying for it to be neutered) and he lived for many happy years around the place doing a great job of keeping the rats and mice down. Since his demise we are over run with rabbits, mice and rats.
We now also have muntjac, who don't have a breeding season, so breed continously through the year. Obviously not native but with over 250,000 estimated to be living in the UK they are becoming a bit of a problem. We also have roe deer, who are native, but it's not ideal to have them crossing busy roads and there are badgers everywhere, with no natural predator they are increasing rapidly in numbers.
PETA doesn't agree with culling, their position is that starvation and disease is a better way of reducing numbers, I disagree with this. My neighbour helps cull deer both locally and in Scotland. I am given venison, which is a lean healthy meat and I feel this is a much better way of reducing populations.
We don't actually have any wild ponies/horses in the UK, the native ponies living on the moors and in the forests are all owned and great care is taken to breed only from the best. Exmoor ponies are still considered an endangered breed, some while ago they were in very poor shape but thankfully human intervention has saved the breed and they are being used quite frequently for conservation work as they live very frugally and are able to eat very tough plants which other animals won't touch, leaving room for our more delicate native species to thrive. I would happily see fewer TBs being bred for racing, as I've said in an earlier post I disagree with horses going into training as two year olds and I would certainly make changes to the Grand National but because I am involved with horses and equestrian sports I am fully aware that the long term aim of some animal rights groups is to try to stop horses being ridden for any purpose. It is my view that if domesticated animals don't have a "purpose" they will eventually cease to exist or just be kept as exhibits. You only have to see what has happened with heavy horses, they are rarer than the Giant Panda!

It is my view that if domesticated animals don't have a "purpose" they will eventually cease to exist or just be kept as exhibits.

And the problem with that is what, exactly?

volver3

Your assumption that giving the animals these rights would stop all animal "ownership" is flawed. Nobody wants to take your pet kitty away.

It needs to be understood that if we didn't have the man-made exploitation of animals for factory farming, "sport" or anything else, nobody would have to worry about what happens to the animals. Because they wouldn't have existed in the first place.

There is no law of nature that leads to there being so many "domesticated" animals around. The idea isn't that everything stops tomorrow and all the lovely racehorses are allowed to run free. The idea is that things are phased out. We don't replace the lovely racehorses with other lovely racehorses that we can exploit, or replace lovely fat piggies with other lovely fat piggies that we can eat.

I think there might be a misconception that animal right activists are sentimental about animals and think they are all just fluffy bunnies we need to look after in our back yards. Animal rights activists know that what their actions will lead to is fewer animals, I'm not sure those complaining about them get that fact.

Exactly.

So, which animals are to be phased out first? And, if global warming does increase in the meantime what happens if countries can’t grow enough crops to feed everyone? The whole thing needs to be organised on a worldwide scale and I can’t see that happening. We need to stop people having wars first. Imo the only animal that really needs phasing out is the human being because we’re the ones causing all the trouble.

We'll just give up then, shall we?

I tend to agree with you MB70. Human beings, the killer ape?

volver3

We'll just give up then, shall we?

Not at all. I just want to know what exactly I’m supposed to be doing. And I’m confused because I thought animal rights people were campaigning to save them not wipe them out.

I just can't be bothered with all the negativity MayBee70. I don't mean you necessarily. But the whole attitude of saying that this will never happen, we can't do anything - and blaming people who are actually trying to make a difference.

I'm sure you are doing all that you can MayBee70 but individually what we are doing isn't enough, we need change at a societal level or none of it will make a blind bit of difference.

And as for the "saving the animals bit", well obviously the animal protesters don't want to line the horses up and shoot them all, but it a truism that if we don't want to exploit (say) sheep, then we don't need all the sheep we currently have and we don't need another variation of a breed just to give us wool of a certain property, for instance. We are going to have to let them go.

I just don’t think that sitting on a snooker table covered in orange powder is exactly the best way to encourage people to do their bit. Or stopping people from going about their daily business by closing roads or throwing paint over beautiful works of art that give people pleasure. And if many of the protesters are vegan therefore not wearing anything made out of leather what are they going to put on their feet if they can’t wear plastic either?

I will say this again and I will not shout.

They are not trying to encourage people to "do their bit".

They are trying to draw attention to their cause and get the government and other people's governments to do something at societal level. Disrupting a live broadcast and getting people talking about what they want is one way of doing that. We may or may not agree with their methods, but to be honest I thought that doing something that got them on prime time TV was pretty clever actually.

As for the vegan shoes thing... I'm a vegetarian and I do my best. I have been known (shock, horror) to wear leather shoes. We all do our best. We do not know what the future promises but they have already produced faux leather out of plant matter.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2V1EAerRWw

I think you only get a "societal change" when there are enough people who are willing to accept change. There are many reasons why we should all be concerned about animal welfare. When 18k dairy cows die in a fire on a ranch in Texas, surely that's enough to make most people think about the true cost of cheap milk. We may not have such huge dairy units in the UK but all our local smallish dairy farms have sold up because they cannot break even, let alone make a living wage. Poor animal welfare is very largely the result of our willingness to buy cheap food and not ask why it is so cheap. Like many, I buy a lot less meat than I used to, pay a lot more and feel happier about how it is farmed. I get more of my protein from plant sources but I am questioning where my beans, lentils etc come from, most are cash crops from poor countries where there is real poverty and hunger. I eat lots of vegetables but many of them are grown using precious water and flown in or grown here under glass in heated greenhouses. Buying food ethically is not straight forward but I do my best. I looked up Animal Rising, they have very broad aims, "Animal Rising is a British animal activist movement with the stated aim of compelling government action towards animal rights and a plant-based food system." I'd like rather more information about how they intend to get there instead of them doing rather pointless publicity stunts which divide opinion, so for now I'll continue to support "Compassion in Farming" as I understand what it is they are trying to do.

Well said Foxy.

Sorry, foxie.

Thanks foxie. Animal welfare is being damaged as small farmers are squeezed out. Bet if you asked the cows, they’d rather be out in the fields than 24/7 in huge cattle shelters

Iam64

Thanks foxie. Animal welfare is being damaged as small farmers are squeezed out. Bet if you asked the cows, they’d rather be out in the fields than 24/7 in huge cattle shelters

The milk production in large dairy units is completely unacceptable, the cows are used like machines. People switch to soya milk or almond milk but neither is good from a conservation POV. Oat milk is OK but is highly processed tbh I'd rather use cow's milk which comes from a dairy herd that lives most of the time in a field but there's also an increasing problem with TB being transmitted by badgers, which are, of course, a protected species. I am surrounded by land which is unsuitable for arable use, we have a few store cattle but it's mostly sheep and horses these days. At least in combination they manage the grass and weeds and fertilise the land but it's a poor living for local farmers.

I’m edge of moorland so great sheep farming country. Farm land increasingly sold to developers

A friend of mine who lived in Yorkshire ( and was at the opposite end of the political spectrum from me) always used to say no one ever talks about the rural poor but it’s just as bad as in inner cities.

MayBee our lamb farmers work all hours in all weathers. I wish they got the govt support they need. Our butcher’s lamb is from his farm. I see the sheep and now lambs living happily on the moors and fields. Then they appear in his shop. He knows exactly where the beef, pork, eggs, venison, he sells comes from. There is no comparison between his meat and the stuff sold in our supermarkets

Why would you ask to be removed from a site because you disagree with some of the contributors? I don't agree with some of the comments on here, but I don't see that as a reason to remove myself from the site. If you feel a particular poster is being rude and unkind, then just tell them that.

It's not about phasing animals out - it's not part of nature for so many animals to be artificially inseminated, and so frequently, or dosed up with drugs to make them more productive.

Eloethan

Why would you ask to be removed from a site because you disagree with some of the contributors? I don't agree with some of the comments on here, but I don't see that as a reason to remove myself from the site. If you feel a particular poster is being rude and unkind, then just tell them that.

Because I felt that no one understood how I could care about horses and yet go racing. And sometimes, on the internet it’s difficult to just switch off from a discussion: I know I should have just walked away but sometimes one gets drawn back like a moth to a flame no matter how upset one feels. As it is HQ ignored my request anyway and I couldn’t work out how to do it myself so I’m still here!

MayBee70

Eloethan

Why would you ask to be removed from a site because you disagree with some of the contributors? I don't agree with some of the comments on here, but I don't see that as a reason to remove myself from the site. If you feel a particular poster is being rude and unkind, then just tell them that.

Because I felt that no one understood how I could care about horses and yet go racing. And sometimes, on the internet it’s difficult to just switch off from a discussion: I know I should have just walked away but sometimes one gets drawn back like a moth to a flame no matter how upset one feels. As it is HQ ignored my request anyway and I couldn’t work out how to do it myself so I’m still here!

I think many would understand your POV but many won't engage in a conversation that can become rather heated and where people have strong opinions. I do understand. I ride and follow dressage, horses are my passion and a huge part of my life. There's a lot of misunderstanding about why I wear spurs, carry a schooling a whip and at the higher levels, will use a double bridle. Some people think they are used to hurt the horse and tbh used incorrectly they can but they are used to train and refine the aids However, there are riders, even at the top level, who abuse their use and I think anyone who is found to be doing that should be banned from the sport. For me and many like me, riding is a partnership, training is all about the journey not the destination and horse welfare is what always has to come first. All equestrian sports are under the spotlight and that has to be a good thing if it leads to changes which benefit the horse but I do wish protesters would find ways to make their cause known without putting horses and riders at risk.

Foxie48 👏👏👍

foxie48, thanks for a well informed post. I don’t ride anymore and only really ever hacked and jumped the odd fallen tree or stream
I got involved in training my own dogs when I rescued a 5 month old standard poodle x working lab, I was her 4th home. Very intelligent, boundless energy, high prey urge. I got 1-1 advice and joined a good training group. 16 years on I’ve done kennel club good citizen to gold with 4 of my dogs and a couple of fosters.
My point is - as with horses, double bridles and other aids, dog training has become dominated by folks who think throwing treats at anything is the only way to train. My high prey urge girl would have found hunting and chasing more fun than any amount of roast chicken. Dogs need positive training but occasionally we find ourselves with a dog who needs to learn certain behaviours have consequences. Of course I’m not meaning abuse, hitting etc.
sorry for going off piste but I believe it’s relevant. Just look at any dog discussion on gransnet, endless complaints about off lead dogs running up, jumping up etc.