Another Death at Aintree

My point Fleurpepper is not to excuse anything, cruelty is cruelty and there's plenty of it around, most of it is not high profile or in the media With regard to the Grand National, I don't think it is cruel (as I've said in my post) that is my opinion. Why you have the idea that I am talking about "Townies" is beyond me, I am actually talking about horse owners generally who neglect their horses, often through ignorance rather than negligence. However, I do have a lot of experience with horses so I feel qualified to express an opinion even if it is not the popular one on this thread

Given the choice, if I were a horse I'd rather run in the Grand National than face the life that so many horses and ponies endure but most people are too ignorant to recognise.

We must not forget that these animals only exist because we have decreed it so. So the choice is an artificial one. Choose between two options that we have decreed.

Oh of course we are all townies who don't know anything about horses.

All the above is abhorrent- is does not make the cruelty or racig any less so. Excusing one form of cruelty by mentionning others has never been acceptable.

In the future no-one will be allowed to ride horses and they will become the equivalent of zoo animals, just a few kept to exhibit the species and people will watch them like animals on a game reserve. I hope I won't be here to see that but I can see it coming. People who have never looked after horses but think they "know" about them will finish them off as a species. It will start with racing but there is already strong opposition from some to stop all equestrian activities. I take part in dressage so am very aware of the dislike some animal activists have towards the so called "dancing horses". I've ridden and owned eventers for nearly 30 years, all of them have loved the XC element, when they don't you soon know about it. I've seen 2 horses die on a XC course, both with heart attacks and in both cases on pretty easy PC courses. It happens. I have had to put two beautiful horses to sleep following field accidents, one with a broken leg and the other with a catastrophic hock injury, not being ridden just being horses doing what horses do in fields.. I've had to PTS 2 horses with strangulated colic, just the most awful thing to witness, they were both completely out of control with pain. I can't express how devastated I was on all of these occasions. I "lost " my last horse last summer and decided at 74 I was too old to buy another but I still ride. There is cruelty in the horse world, I don't mind National Hunt racing, the horses are skeletally mature, fit and well trained over schooling fences. They progress over different types of course and they are ridden by real professionals who know what they are doing and trainers enter them for races according to their strengths and ability. I dislike flat racing because horses are not skeletally mature, most don't make the grade and lots break down at an early age. However, I wish people would make as much fuss about the long term casual cruelty that I see all around me. Obese horses, fed too much and exercised too little who are candidates for Laminitis, EMS and early arthritis. Horses ridden in poorly fitting tack and unsuitable bits by people who, to be blunt, actually can't ride. Lame horses being ridden by people who should know better but choose not to. Old horses standing retired but uncared for because the owner won't do the "decent thing" and pay for euthanasia because they "love them so much". Given the choice, if I were a horse I'd rather run in the Grand National than face the life that so many horses and ponies endure but most people are too ignorant to recognise.

I know I’m banging my head on a brick wall here Fleurpepper. Breeding dogs, racing horses can be successful ethical businesses. My spaniel was loved, it was obvious all their dogs were the centre of their universe. They’re successful thst doesn’t mean they don’t love their dogs.
The same applies to people who breed fine race horses

Kate1949

Some years ago, we took our 15 year old nephew to the races. He was suffering from leukaemia at the time (and subsequently died) and we wanted to treat him to a day out.
A horse was injured and they put it down, there, in front of us, putting a tarpaulin up to shield it from the people in the 'posh' enclosures but not from us. It was horrendous.

That’s so very sad about your nephew Kate1949, I’m sorry the treatment did not work and how horrendous to witness the awful event of the horse losing its life what an awful day my sympathies

The daughter of a friend of mine is involved in a charity that rescues and rehomes racehorses. Some of hers come from well known stables and have been retired early because of injury or perhaps lack of stamina or even because they just don't enjoy it. She has a stable full of beautiful horses which are all moved on to good homes.

I would like to see a much smaller field in the National but I doubt if that will happen because less runners will mean less money. And of course accidents happen wherever you are. A friend of mine lost her much loved horse when it's leg was broken by another horse that it was grazing with.

LucyLocket55 and Maybee70 thanks for your thoughts on this, having read them and thought about it myself I agree with what you both say.
I was one of the ignorant people who thought smaller fences may help, as I know nothing about racing or horses but knew they had reduced them in size before.As merlotgran and you say, it would just mean a faster race and maybe more accidents.
Always good to have knowledgeable people on forums.👍🏻

LucyLocket55

the love of an animal should be for the animal, not related to its performance and earning capability.

Yup, as shown by one of our lads who is sleeping in the stable with one of the horses he looks after as we are monitoring his breathing.

And this horse is not a particularly successful racer, has never earnt much in winnings but he is just loved.

As someone who has stayed overnight in one of our horses stable several times, I totally get it.

the love of an animal should be for the animal, not related to its performance and earning capability.

Yup, as shown by one of our lads who is sleeping in the stable with one of the horses he looks after as we are monitoring his breathing.

And this horse is not a particularly successful racer, has never earnt much in winnings but he is just loved.

There you go 'She’d been kept to show but imperfect teeth ruled her out of being a Crufts winner '. What sort of 'love' is that?

But yes, it is good the breeders did care about the dog going to a good home. Certainly not always the case. My neighbour just wanted rid- she wanted a dog that won her kudos and respect, again. For her- not the dog.

Dog fighters and badgers baiters will tell you that they just love their dogs more than anything.

Luckygirl3

It doesn't have to be banned - it has to be made safer. At the moment it is known full well that horses will die, but no-one seems to care as long as the punters get to place their bets. It is grotesque and inhumane.

I am not a great animal lover - no pets and not really interested. but even I find this totally unacceptable. But hey - the royals love it so it must be fine.

That is wrong. People in racing do care and each death is investigated. Changes are made constantly eg the latest idea is to change the colour of hurdles because horses can see white better than the orange that they used to be. Water jumps are omitted from many racecourses: they were regarded as a safe spectacle, usually in front of the stands but it was found that many horses dropped their hind legs into them, thus damaging themselves. A recent problem is horses breaking down in the flat: a possibility being that courses are watered more because of lack of rainfall. Investigations are ongoing. The National used to be ran in whatever the ground happened to be like on the day. It now has to be good to soft which is much safer. The race is slightly shorter. Whip rules are stringent. Horses have to be of a certain standard and experience to run in the race and jockeys have to be experienced too. I think amateurs should be prevented from riding over the National fences. Years ago it was made possible for loose horses to run round the fences but they still tend to jump them. The use of outriders is sometimes put forward.

Lucy - I’ve heard your argument many times. I don’t agree with all you say but defend your right to say it. My favourite riding school horse for the last 5 years I was fit enough to ride was a beautiful retired race horse. Big beautiful and fantastic to hack out with.

Fleurpepper, my 5 year old spaniel came to me at 10 months. She’d been kept to show but imperfect teeth ruled her out of being a Crufts winner like her parents. I got a reference from the breeder I bought my first spaniel from 45 years earlier. I was interviewed at length. Three others had been turned away by the breeders. I could have taken her home but we were going away for 3 weeks a bout 6 weeks later, the spaniel would have joined my older dog boarding with a trainer friend who she’d have got to know by then. No said the breeder, we will keep her till yiu get back, we don’t want her confused so soon after moving to you. They were lovely people. Blue roan cocker spaniels their life.
Your dislike of breeders of pedigree dogs is rehearsed here at every opportunity. Yes there are some who exploit dogs (and horses) but my experience has been of people who love their dogs even when it’s a business. My spaniel had been living in the breeders home along with their 6 other spaniels. They were reluctant to let her go but there are financial issues aren’t there - vet bills, feed bills.

LucyLocket55

I think your post has a deeper aspect, which is about what our relationship is as humans with the animal kingdom. There is a general assumption that it is fine to use them for our own ends: companionship, food, entertainment. This is something I would question - I am not sure that it is OK at all.

OK - horses race in the wild but they do it for natural reasons. They do not do it at our behest, with someone sitting on their backs and beating them with a whip. They do not naturally breed to run faster and faster. But they have a monetary value to the human race, so ethics tend to lose out.

I think anyone involved with the racing industry has to have justifications - which may satisfy them, but not necessarily many others.

Man and animals - an interesting ethical dilemma. What is OK? What is not?

From battery hens to overbred dogs and methods of breeding for human consumption.

Why is it OK to overbreed and race horses, but not OK with say monkeys?

I do not know the answers, but I do not take the status quo for granted.

Sorry Lucy, but NO.

'You will never ever love our horses more than us.'

the love of an animal should be for the animal, not related to its performance and earning capability.

I had a neighbour who wanted to give me a dog. She was a Cruft's winner, and her new so-called very much loved dog, was just not good enough, as it would not retrieve the dumb bell. So she wanted rid. True love, my foot.

Just because other horses die in other settings than horse-riding, is NO excuse. How many horses have you 'let go' and how, because they didn't make it in the racing world?

LuctLocket carefully ignores that domesticated animals are bred for a specific purpose e.g. food, entertainment.

In the case of modern racehorses the profiteer is the gambling industry: the loser once again is the animal in this case the racehorse . Lucy regards the animals an instrument for our entertainment.

Lucy needs to review her optimistic bias which she seems unaware is intended to rationalise cruelty.

I look forward to the day when I am able to join the protesters. The delay will no doubt be much greater than 15 minutes because it will take many more than 4 policeman to remove me from the course! Possibly one of those RAF helicopters with a winch will be called upon……

I am involved in the racing industry and I wasn’t going to say anything on here as I am trying to manage my mind away from social media at this stage of my life but I feel this is something I need to write.

All those people sharing posts written by random members of the public about the Grand National with all the ‘stats’ and ‘facts’ just shows the exact sort of person you are. Oooo see some random post on Facebook that some uneducated person writes - must be true 🙄 when in reality 99% of posts and links are all fake news and scams anyway but you’ll all still believe what you read on here. Including sharing posts of lost dogs that have been lost for 20 years with a different story each time 🤦‍♀️

Let me tell you something, where are you all those other days of the year when our horses are racing? Where are you when it’s the middle of the day or night and we are with a vet fighting to save their lives for other reasons?
Racehorses are born on this planet to do just that. Stop trying to cotton wool the fact that they want to have this life out in a field doing pony club or rotting eating grass and getting fat.
Racing is the most natural thing for a horse to do, in the wild what do the herds do? They race…they don’t dance and do dressage, they don’t jump over puissance walls, they don’t chase balls around finding a goal…naturally they race.

Horses don’t run in the grand national and think about the do good antis and approach the first fence thinking ‘oh I wish the antis had done a better job I hate this’ because they actually love it. They want to take each other on and if they don’t they won’t.

If you’re one of the people that have never stepped foot or worked in racing, the you need to experience all of it so you can make an informed opinion.

Sharing bullsh*t posts with crying faces and piping up on one day of the year does not make you informed. And nobody, loves our horses more than we do.

Stop with the ‘oh it’s all about money’ if you actually knew anything you’d know it has nothing do to with money!!! You’d be a very lucky person to make money owning or training a racehorse.

These horses want for nothing. They are cared for at the highest standard. Unfortunately falls etc happen and they cannot be saved, but if it is their time to go then it’s their time. I would rather know my horse was looked after & loved right up until the end in the correct hands, than finding it a home and years to come see it’s been passed around and rescued and rotting away in a field.
That is not what these horses know or want. stop sugarcoating their lives and making out they don’t want to race or be fit or be athletes.

That horse yesterday was sadly killed in the national, but the post circulating is saying it broke its neck….classic horsey people sharing it and believing it, probably the same kind of people that will pay a ‘bit expert’ to come and tell them what bit is right for their horse 🙄 Hill Sixteen did not break his neck, he was dead before he even got to the jump as he had a heart attack by the looks of things. And it’s heartbreaking for the whole industry to see that, let alone the team behind the horse and everyone involved with the horse. You will never be able to imagine the heart break they are feeling right now which will go on for months, but you, you’ll forget about it in the next few days and the horse will never cross your mind again….

Horses die every single day, even racehorses at home in their daily routine. Horses die on the road, due to horrific drivers, horses die standing in a field or rolling in the mud, horses die in their stables, horses die eventing/dressage/showjumping/hunting/polo etc etc they are dying daily. And we have to accept that is the normal thing to happen because animals & humans have to die to make way to new ones etc and nothing will ever be more sad when you lose your best friend, whether that’s a horse or dog or human.

We who work in the industry work 24/7 giving our love and soul to these horses day in and day out. Please do go and educate yourself before sharing and reading some of the absolutely crap on social media - find out for yourself. Go to a yard. Ride a racehorse. Meet and talk the people involved and form your own opinion .

Just remember 4 horses out of 40 this year FELL. Just 4. Sadly one fatal due to a heart attack (nothing to do with the jumps)
& stop with the more uneducated comments about making the jumps smaller….this angers me so much!!! What do you think will be achieved by this??!! Smaller jumps makes the field go….faster….yes it does and that’s exactly what we don’t want.

I do wonder what you think will happen if the national or racing is stopped? What will happen to all those horses without a job to do? Are you going to take them back to your gardens and shut them in a cube for the rest of their lives? Pleaselet us carry on and care for them the correct way, back in these top class yards with people who know what they are doing.

There is a page on Facebook called Racehorses where are they now (feel free to join it) with over 80,000 members on there who own and show off their ex racehorses all over the country. Ex racehorses are a hugely popular breed now in the equine world and have a very strong place there. Trainers & staff go to the worlds end to find their warriors the best homes after they have retired from racing. Search on plenty of their Facebook pages and you’ll see plenty of adverts looking for 5* homes. It is now a huge part of our industry which is backed and supported by the authorities such as the BHA & Wetherbys.

You will never ever love our horses more than us.

MayBee70

The only people at Aintree that wanted a fatality yesterday were the protesters which is why they’re looking on yesterday as a victory . I totally respect their right to protest and the racing authorities will look at the points they raise but they did it in a way that had an adverse effect on the very horses they were supposedly protecting.

Saying the protesters wanted a fatality wasn't a nice thing to say at all.

There are almost always horse deaths at the Grand National whether or not the protesters are there. And it should be stopped.

But hey - the royals love it so it must be fine.

That really isn’t fair. Do you honestly think that a sport which is followed and enjoyed by millions of working people is excused of any controversy because of royal participation?

The late Queen was a devoted owner and breeder, providing employment and prestige for many. Her death is a sad loss to the industry. I’m glad Camilla will be taking up the mantle.

FYI, The Duke of Edinburgh wasn’t the least bit interested and neither is King Charles.

It doesn't have to be banned - it has to be made safer. At the moment it is known full well that horses will die, but no-one seems to care as long as the punters get to place their bets. It is grotesque and inhumane.

I am not a great animal lover - no pets and not really interested. but even I find this totally unacceptable. But hey - the royals love it so it must be fine.

GrannyGravy13

Blondiescot I have ridden since I was approximately 5 years old, AS’s ride, DD competed in ODE’s Showjumping, Pony Club etc. Have always had ponies/horses, now the GC are riding.

Once one equestrian sport is banned these activists will move on to the next. Their spokeswoman said as much on Breakfast News last week.

(If I recall there was a Pony Club event several years ago where a mother was caught doping the competition.)

I apologise, I misread your earlier post and thought you were calling for other equestrian events to be banned. I totally understand what you are saying now.

Blondiescot I have ridden since I was approximately 5 years old, AS’s ride, DD competed in ODE’s Showjumping, Pony Club etc. Have always had ponies/horses, now the GC are riding.

Once one equestrian sport is banned these activists will move on to the next. Their spokeswoman said as much on Breakfast News last week.

(If I recall there was a Pony Club event several years ago where a mother was caught doping the competition.)

GrannyGravy13

If horse racing is banned what next?

Point-to-Point, Cross Country, Show Jumping, Polo, Carriage Driving or even Pony Club events (extremely competitive parents)…

I've been around horses all my life and been a Pony Club parent too (one of the poor relations, lol!), so can you please point to how many horses have died as a result of taking part in these events?

Thanks MayBee for your post. I agree with nightowl and will be interested in updates.
Im not suggesting bannin horse racing GrannyGravy but I’d like to see the National banned or at the very least made safer for horses and riders.