Why is Keir Starmer afraid to tell the truth about brexit?

Grantanow

A vote for the Greens may be symbolically valuable but I'm afraid it would be ineffective in dislodging the Tories. I shall probably hold my nose and vote Lib Dem (if I can remember my voter ID) as voting Labour in the South West is mostly a waste. I just worry the Lib Dems will once again be seduced into coalition with the Tories.

Oh please, Grantanow, let Granny go to the Greens. At least her attacks on the Labour would then seem a little bit logical. I doubt it would last though. Attacks on the Green's would soon start though, I would guess.

FannyCornforth

I cannot envisage RLB as PM

Couldn't stand her.

Today 10:53paddyann54

Oh dear Molly of course Starmer would "allow" a holiday ,he's a SIR so he obviously agrees with the monarchy or he'd have refused an Empire title/medal .
THATS one of the reasons many labour or previous labour voters wont vote for him that and his pro israeli stance to the extent palestinian supporting jews were accused of anti semitism and barred from a party they had been members of for decades.
No skin of my nose the pro palestinian jews I know joined the SNP who dont accept honours or think Israel is in any way justified in the treatment of the Palestinian people .Aparty that sees being anti Israeli government is NOT anti semitic .
Of course SNP is a mess....according to media and Gransnet ,unlike your own squeaky clean government...where are the billions given to Tory donors ,relatives and even a friendly pub owner ?
Think this is the correct thread Paddyanne for your post.

Whitewavemark2

As an aside. I have read a couple of articles relating to the latest twitter “ads” been put out by The Labour Party. I have eventually come to the conclusion that they are wrong to follow the Tory lead and attack at a personal level as the Tories do and have done over the years. To me going down this populist divisive road I can never end well. I am aware that companies like CM Saatchi support this Labour initiative arguing that it shows that Labour is prepared to take the fight to the Tories, particularly as it is known that the Tories are preparing to fight really dirty leading up to the election. But I feel very uneasy.

I think Starmer should be bigger than that quite frankly.

The expenses issue is another red herring, Starmer did nothing wrong - there is no scandal.

I agree Whitewavemark, I’m not a fan of the populist personal attack route for ads either.

As an aside. I have read a couple of articles relating to the latest twitter “ads” been put out by The Labour Party. I have eventually come to the conclusion that they are wrong to follow the Tory lead and attack at a personal level as the Tories do and have done over the years. To me going down this populist divisive road I can never end well. I am aware that companies like CM Saatchi support this Labour initiative arguing that it shows that Labour is prepared to take the fight to the Tories, particularly as it is known that the Tories are preparing to fight really dirty leading up to the election. But I feel very uneasy.

I think Starmer should be bigger than that quite frankly.

The expenses issue is another red herring, Starmer did nothing wrong - there is no scandal.

When DPP he was on the establishment side.

Do you not believe in the Rule of Law, Grany?

Grany

Starmer will be worse than the tories.

You don’t really think that, do you?
How?

I cannot envisage RLB as PM

Labour has no vision. Kicked out the left even interfered in the selection processes so now establishment will welcome them into power. They will do what follow establishment or media say as they do not have anyone on the left to stop them. He won't do what he says he will he's lied up until now and will do the same in power. Better to have the Greens with their very good polices and their environmental polices need transformative polices like these of the Greens not the right of the Labour Party now. When he was in leadership contest Rebecca Long Bailey announced all her polices them Starmer followed coming out with the same So people had a choice a man with socialist polices or a woman they chose him. Then as leader he broke everyone of his 10 pledges. When DPP he was on the establishment side. Now he has an expenses scandal charging tax payer for his expenses when DPP

A vote for the Greens may be symbolically valuable but I'm afraid it would be ineffective in dislodging the Tories. I shall probably hold my nose and vote Lib Dem (if I can remember my voter ID) as voting Labour in the South West is mostly a waste. I just worry the Lib Dems will once again be seduced into coalition with the Tories.

Well, GrannyRose15, it's taken the tories 13 years to break the UK so I don't think there are going to be any quick fixes.

They could boost the economy quite fast by sorting out public service pay as most of the money would be spent into the economy, giving a boost to all the private enterprises that would be supported by consumers actually having enough money to spend in them.

And putting money into public services, such as the environment agency would help to stem the pollution of our seas and rivers. HMRC would be able to chase up the big tax evaders more effectively. Social care, the justice system, the NHS(and doubtless other services which people could name) would all benefit from some state investment.

But the big problem they are going to face is a shortage of trained personnel for these services as training is a long term issue. We're going to have to rely on immigration to help solve this problem in the short term and possibly in the long term as the population ages even further and, at the average family being 1.7 children, it's not being replaced

Then there is the Green agenda, more investment in retrofitting old properties to make them energy efficient and investment in alternative energy. They've already signalled investment of £28billion, though it would take much more than that.

The NHS needs a thorough reform to make it an integrated care service and to cut out the silly business models that the tories introduced which just make patient care much more complex. It needs careful thought and planning and isn't going to happen overnight.

Then, of course, the UK has to be somehow rescued from the ridiculous Brexit decision...

I think it will take at least two terms and a lot of money to get the UK on its feet again.

This is just off the top of my head.

Truthfully I am a bit doubtful as to whether Labour has the necessary vision to make the much needed huge initial investment, but I can hope...

GrannyRose15

I don’t think anyone answered my question. How long will it take a new government to put everything right? What does anyone think?

Ten years - two parliaments. Hopefully they will bring in PR during the second.

I don’t think anyone answered my question. How long will it take a new government to put everything right? What does anyone think?

Grany

Starmer will be worse than the tories.

I guessed you were a closet Tory.

Anyone who says that about the labour party generally has absolutely no need for a labour government and can afford that kind of indulgence.

Grany

Is it time to LEAVE Labour?
Matt Zarb-Cousin discuses joining the Green Party.on YouTube.
I agree what he says.

I think you might find the Green Party very interesting Grany.

Starmer will be worse than the tories.

Your choice of course- but with FPTP, will it not be a wasted vote- straight into the bin? A vote in the bin doesn't achieve much.

I shall vote tactically- anything to get rid of those awful ERG Tories.

Starmer not cutting through. I am voting the Green Party at the next General Election.

The FPTP system makes it just impossible in most areas.

Is it time to LEAVE Labour?
Matt Zarb-Cousin discuses joining the Green Party.on YouTube.
I agree what he says.

May I very politely suggest that Mental health isn't linked in anyway with political thoughts and choices? I was really upset, in this interesting discussion.

Haven't we got past the ideas that Mental Health is related to cognitive capacity? Given the openness which it is discussed in GN, and the numbers of people who clearly currently are experiencing issues, can we not make these statements?

It took a lot of courage to write this!

It will be slower than we may want, but we will be able to have a better relationship with the EU, followed by better trade agreements. The EU will not let us rejoin until and unless we are in step with them. Taking a bit longer may well be to our advantage. The EU was never perfect, although that was not a good enough reason for leaving. Having left, we may be able to come to a better arrangement that suits an island off the edge of a continent even better than the one we had before but we will have to give them time to trust us again.

there are more pressing problems to fix after 13 years of Tory misrule.

Unfortunately some the economic problems aren't going to be solved unless we have better access to the huge market on our doorstep. The pitiful trade deals that have been made so far and the predicted negligible return from joining a trade bloc thousands of miles away are not going to compensate for what we have lost as a result of Brexit.

There is plenty of evidence of damage caused by Brexit, economic and otherwise but Starmer is wise to lie low for fear of antagonising those who voted for Brexit but might vote Labour next time. If Labour were returned with a massive majority he could then revise his position but more likely it's going to be an outer circle relationship with the EU for some time to come. It took massive efforts by Macmillan and later Heath to gain entry and there are more pressing problems to fix after 13 years of Tory misrule.