Apparently it is our fault that the economy is such rubbish because we can’t add up

Grammaretto

I am not anti maths at all and extremely proud of my clever DC and D,GC though I doubt they would want to teach.
However in the '60s in an all girls school with no male staff, maths teachers were hard to come by.
We had to understand logarithms and measure the paths around tennis courts
I was ok at mental arithmetic which was useful as we weren't allowed calculators.

Measuring the paths round tennis courts would be essential if you were given the job of marking out a new court with paint and wanted to order the right quantity.

Grammaretto

China grandmabatty We'll get them from China. They teach maths there.

I went to an all girls school . The maths teacher was an ancient crone who was always cross. I don't know if anyone took maths GCE, I certainly didn't. .
--poor thing. She was probably in pain or menopausal--

My Maths teacher mumbled to the blackboard all the time. I was rubbish at Maths and came out ungraded at O level. I went back at 40 to evening classes and had the most fabulous teacher who brought Maths alive and used 'living' examples of where it all applied. I am now the proud owner of a Grade C Maths certificate.

Grammaretto

I am not anti maths at all and extremely proud of my clever DC and D,GC though I doubt they would want to teach.
However in the '60s in an all girls school with no male staff, maths teachers were hard to come by.
We had to understand logarithms and measure the paths around tennis courts
I was ok at mental arithmetic which was useful as we weren't allowed calculators.

Why wouldn't they want to teach?

I loved maths at school and still do now. Trig and calculus were favourites but I don't think I ever used them once I left school.

Growstuff and they might understand that the OBR apparently has a much lower inflation projection for the end of the year which makes a 35 percent pay demand look over the top.

If you are a maths wizard there are many,many jobs you could go for. The pay and conditions for teachers just don’t cut it, do they ? If they want more maths teachers they should pay for them and reward them. An economist should work that one out.

Basic maths - or BIDMAS as is now taught is essential. Instant recall of number bonds and of multiplication tables is useful, although the ability to use a calculator can take care of most of that.
Understanding the practical applications of area, for decorating or fitting carpets or percentages for discounts or pay increases is useful but I’m still waiting for the day when I can meaningfully use half the base x the height outside teaching.

ronib

Growstuff and they might understand that the OBR apparently has a much lower inflation projection for the end of the year which makes a 35 percent pay demand look over the top.

But it doesn't look over the top! Compare with pay 11 years ago. That's the point I'm making. We'd actually have to have "negative inflation" without a massive pay increase.

Two observations - one on teacher shortages.
DD1 who has a Politics and Economics degree gave up a successful career as a Director of an international financial recruitment agency to become a secondary maths teacher 10 years ago. She has been able to “cherry pick” jobs in excellent schools because good Maths teachers seem to be like hens’ teeth.
However coping with three children and all their out of school activities plus the demands of the job she loved proved too much and she has taken a career break. How many other teachers in all disciplines burn out in under 10 years I wonder? Too many. Teaching is not the job it was or that others imagine it to be (short days and long holidays!)
The other thing is that whatever Rishi Sunak has said, there are clearly fundamental misunderstandings such as the belief that public sector staff can expect huge pay rises and still look forward to up to 75% final salary pensions and also of course the magic money tree.
A poster I shall not name and who in fact may no longer be posting , when asked who she thought would pay for the billions handed out in furlough payments, (apparently seriously) suggested the government could simply print more money.
Look where that got Germany in the 30’s.

growstuff teaching as a profession has had a bad press for a long time especially teaching teenagers, who probably don't want to learn.

My df who herself had a degree in maths is appalled by the lack of teaching her teenaged DS is receiving as he embarks on his Nat 5s (Scottish exams have different names)

grandMattie

Well said, GG3. There seems to be pride in saying that one is “rubbish at maths”. A good base in arithmetic is as necessary are reading and writing…. algebra, trigonometry etc., are secondary.
I accept that some people find the more abstract difficult, but good basic arithmetic is an absolute must.

And that’s exactly what Sunak is talking about, good basic maths and not pure maths.
Students are leaving school with no concept of mathematics and that can’t be right.
My son could tell you that having A level Greek and Latin is not what you want today but good basic maths.

PS I should add DD spent two years on a postgraduate teaching diploma specialising in Secondary Maths despite a significant Maths element in her degree and an A at A level.

Grammaretto
My grandson is in 6th form. I can’t count how many times he’s turned up for lessons but the teacher didn’t.

I enjoyed maths and needed it for nursing, but my son who studied Astrophysics at Uni seemed to be born with an inate understanding of physics and maths... he drew a 3D design for his lego at the age of 3.. and thinks that maths helps us understand the world. So maybe Sunak is on to something useful.. we're going to need many more scientists to combat the climate problems ahead of us

Maths is all around us.

Here are some snippets from today's BBC, Guardian and Daily Mail:

“About 17,000 people are diagnosed each year in the UK (with a specific bowel condition).”

So what chance do you as an individual have of developing it?

“It said that sustainable aviation fuel (Saf) would be a key part of the industry's "journey to net zero", accounting for at least three quarters of the fuel used in UK flights by 2050.
Saf is produced from sustainable sources such as agricultural waste and reduces carbon emissions by 70% compared with traditional jet fuel.
However, it is currently several times more expensive to produce - costs the group says would have to be passed on.”

What does that really mean in the context of prices?

“While 30 officers were under investigation in Suffolk – a force of 1,298 – over allegations of racism and 37 at Staffordshire, the figure was as high as 157 at Essex police, according to data released under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act.”

How serious a problem is there?

“The artworks also include Fylde Farm by LS Lowry, worth about £120,000, and a portrait of George Bernard Shaw by Augustus John, worth about £70,000. Elsewhere in the house are multiple other works, including paintings by Paul Nash, Raffaellino del Garbo and Alfred Sisley. The Eve of St Agnes by John Everett Millais, which the queen mother bought at auction in 1942 for £630, could be worth about £1.5m today.”

So what could be done if these artworks were sold?

“Polls continued to show leads over the Tories of about 25 percentage points.”

What does that mean in practical terms?

“McDonald's slashes the price of two popular items by up to 70% - but you'll have to be quick!”

How much will you save?

“The best one-year fix currently pays 4.52 per cent, and the best five-year fix pays 4.65 per cent.”

How much will a saver make if inflation continues at 10%?

Grammaretto

growstuff teaching as a profession has had a bad press for a long time especially teaching teenagers, who probably don't want to learn.

My df who herself had a degree in maths is appalled by the lack of teaching her teenaged DS is receiving as he embarks on his Nat 5s (Scottish exams have different names)

So where is Sunak going to find all these new maths teachers who will be needed?

I didn't realize that being proud of not being good at maths is a thing. I was always rather proud of being good at mental arithmetic, still am really.
Mind you, I'm proud of being able to spell correctly and of having good grammar.
I'm also proud of being able to speak French without sounding like Ted Heath.
Smug git me!

I love the idea mentioned above that if the electorate as a whole were better at maths they'd realize the paltriness of pay rises - 10% of bog all is still bog all.

Foxygloves What 75% final salary pensions? People who think that's what public service workers receive are living on another planet - there' probably no hope for them.

Foxygloves

Two observations - one on teacher shortages.
DD1 who has a Politics and Economics degree gave up a successful career as a Director of an international financial recruitment agency to become a secondary maths teacher 10 years ago. She has been able to “cherry pick” jobs in excellent schools because good Maths teachers seem to be like hens’ teeth.
However coping with three children and all their out of school activities plus the demands of the job she loved proved too much and she has taken a career break. How many other teachers in all disciplines burn out in under 10 years I wonder? Too many. Teaching is not the job it was or that others imagine it to be (short days and long holidays!)
The other thing is that whatever Rishi Sunak has said, there are clearly fundamental misunderstandings such as the belief that public sector staff can expect huge pay rises and still look forward to up to 75% final salary pensions and also of course the magic money tree.
A poster I shall not name and who in fact may no longer be posting , when asked who she thought would pay for the billions handed out in furlough payments, (apparently seriously) suggested the government could simply print more money.
Look where that got Germany in the 30’s.

Actually, the government can just print new money. The difference is that Germany was required to pay in foreign currencies.

All the girls at my school had to do maths to the age of 18 as part of General Studies A level. I don't remember anybody finding it particularly onerous - they had more problems with the compulsory foreign language element.

Basic arithmetic is essential for everybody. I didn't do O-Level but understand averages, percentages and area and am happy with mental arithmetic. However, at my grammar school in the 1960s we had one term of arithmetic, one of algebra and one of geometry (and later trigonometry), so I found it impossible to remember anything I had grasped once we repeated the cycle. Also, the classes were big, and our teacher, a lovely woman, really preferred teaching the clever girls, not dumbos like us in the bottom set.

The problem is twofold, shortage of maths teachers and it's so badly taught, or it certainly is in the state sector, maybe that isn't the case in private schools. When our children were at school in the 90s and the noughties, particularly in junior school, there never seemed to be any consolidation, so different topics for example, fractions were skimmed over before it could be properly absorbed, there was a flitting about, few days on that then on to the next thing. When in a roundabout way returning to say fractions, more often than not, much had been forgotten from when it previously came up. I seem to remember when I was at school we seemed to spend what seemed like an eternity on the basics thus inculcated partly by rote and partly by fear of getting whacked (not good) By the time my kids were in their pre GCSE year, and they went to what would be considered a very good comprehensive, it became apparent they would need some private tutoring to get them through the exam. My first port of call for advice in this was their maths teacher who breezily announced "oh yes so many of them here get Mr so and so in to coach them privately" Mr so and so being a very able science teacher who was adept at coaching in both science and maths. So after school he could be found in many a pupil's kitchen or dining room. He was the person I approached and he was well worth the £25 an hour, as it was then, and the packet of something like chocolate Hob Nobs he also requested as part of his fee.

Maybe Rishi could implement a better way of how the basics could be taught, possibly he has no idea as neither he nor his children have been through the state system (where the majority of the population are educated) If he did, he might have more idea in what is lacking as regards to the teaching of some of the elementary stuff, rather than ramping up the requirement to study the subject until 18 as many pupils I imagine have been turned off it long before they reach that age.

growstuff

Foxygloves What 75% final salary pensions? People who think that's what public service workers receive are living on another planet - there' probably no hope for them.

Growstuff Bma shows working out of final pension for hospital consultants £83k seems plausible.

And - most of the maths I do remember I learned at primary school.

Do any of you think that the elephant in the room regarding maths and most teaching at secondary level is the breakdown of discipline in the classrooms.

My AC were respectful of their teachers and a tad afraid of some.

My GC whilst respectful are of a generation where their teachers are trying to be friends with their pupils. Great on some levels but how do you discipline a class full of friends.

I am not advocating a return of the cane/ruler or the thrown blackberries rubber, but exclusion and isolation in my opinion do not appear to be useful tools.