Apparently it is our fault that the economy is such rubbish because we can’t add up

Low numeracy skills (and literacy, too) are nothing new - so I spot a non-story - again, a smokescreen perhaps?

I find it quite hilarious, though, that Gransnetters think it applies to them, personally. The numeracy skills of pensioners are hardly a concern for the government!

I'm sorry that some posters believe that they just can't do maths. If someone pushes a balloon at you - you pat it back. If it's a cricket ball coming your way, you'd probably duck or hit it if you had a bat. If you are driving, you work out pretty quickly that the car veering towards you may miss or hit you and take evasive action or not. If you drop something fragile, you make an effort to catch it - sometimes you catch it or you won't mind because it is going to fall only a short distance on to something soft. You walk up stairs, your brain needs to work out how far to lift your knees, whether you need to hold on to the bannister! Our brains are carrying out thousands of calculations all the time. They are used to calculations.

The problem with arithmetic is the way it is taught and the general view that it is difficult. Could literacy be taught by wrote learning? I'm asking that because I don't think it could. So why would we teach arithmetic by wrote? I tutored a 15 year old girl who froze when tested on her times table. She couldn't remember her conditioned responses. So we worked out alternative ways of carrying out simple multiplication and filled in the times table that way. It wasn't a feat of memory any more, just some simple calculations. It gave her confidence.

Working as a supply teacher in a secondary school maths class, I took some classes in the lowest stream. When no work had been prepared for the pupils, I had to improvise, so we looked at patterns in numbers. Some of the most pupils said "we're rubbish at maths" and the girl at the back, touching up her makeup and mostly ignoring what was going on casually announced that the pattern on the board was obvious and predicted what came next. Why was she in the lowest stream?

Arithmetic teaching needs a re-think and an individual learning approach. If arithmetic is easily mastered, it will help to build a better foundation for other mathematics disciplines as needed.

Disclaimer first - I haven't read every post on this thread.

Now, would any of you like to say how your brain just doesn't take in how to read? How it's not something you can learn, and how you've done fine without it?

No, didn't think so.

Oh growstuff, how right you are. Endless rhetoric from a series of Education Secretaries has focused on every child achieving above average results. Clearly none of them understand the normal distribution curve.

growstuff

Wheniwasyourage

Mollygo "Understanding the practical applications of area, for decorating or fitting carpets or percentages for discounts or pay increases is useful but I’m still waiting for the day when I can meaningfully use half the base x the height outside teaching."

We used that formula in a quiz recently (could possibly have been the Guardian Thursday quiz) and were both delighted that we remembered it!

Maybe if you wanted to make a triangular cake or work out how much fabric you need to make bunting.

or work out how much fabric you need to make bunting

Just buy fat quarters and fold! 😁

Actually, crafts, DIY, cooking, require a reasonable knowledge of basic maths and most people probably know more basic maths than they think.

Mollygo

Grantanow, to be fair, there have always been adults who can’t do simple maths-even more on the basis of “if you don’t use it, you lose it”.

People don't even need to check their change any more, just show the card to the EPOS. Mostly we dont even have to remember a pin number either.

BlueBelle

* I'm not talking about understanding calculus, but I think everybody has the capacity to do basic maths, apart from a handful with genuine dyscalculia.*

If a child hasn’t mastered basic maths by age 16 they aren’t going to are they, let’s be straight about things. I didn’t presume Sunak was talking about basic maths but maths as in GCSE and A level surely all children have achieved basic maths ie adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying, money and measurements by age 12 if they are going to.

So what are they going to be doing between 16 and 18 just going over and over primary school stuff ….how to hold a child back and bore them rigid when they could be learning on a job and earning money on the first rung of the ladder
Kids don’t need higher maths to have a useful career

Yes I agree, if they're forced to attend maths classes beyond 16 not having mastered basic arithmetic, an essential life skill, then they aren't going to be a participating member of a compulsory class.

What I did learn when my children were at school, much teaching time was lost to low level disruption, that improved somewhat when they moved on to 6th form college and at that time, pupils didn't have to stay in full time education beyond 16 so if students weren't fully engaged and being a distraction, the teacher/lecturer could say and apparently did "you don't have to be here wasting my time, your time and everybody else's time!"

AGAA4

I wonder too if due to the lack of maths teachers some children are being taught by teachers not qualified in that subject. My DS was asked to teach biology but was a chemistry teacher. My SiL has been asked to teach Maths. He teaches physics and chemistry. They both refused saying not fair on the students.
I think the lack of maths and science teachers is impacting on students education overall.

And huge class sizes too.

Understanding the terrible, awful realities of DEBT is reall essential. A large proportion of the population is in big trouble because of debt- some of it sort of OK, in the form of a mortgage. But for the poorest in society, debt at massive 'legal' bank rates, but worse, pay day type loans, and even 'much more' worse- illegal lenders. Debt is the way to keep little people tied. It used to be tied cottages or small holdings, weaving loom rents, etc. And now? Same old, same old. Sad and tragic.

The great Tony Benn explained it so well.

fb.watch/jZdFGmg1DS/

So you're assuming two years aren't wasted. I can't honestly see 5 and 6 year olds being able to interpret a complex graph.

PS. I'm not the slightest bit surprised so many pupils are negative about maths.

I assume that children start to learn simple arithmetic whilst in junior school. So if Sunak wants them to learn maths right through until they are 18 in my book that means 11 years of wasted time for many. I think that everyone is agreed that a knowledge of basic maths is essential but there has to be something wrong if it could take 11 years.

Clearly not something that most people are exercised over.

Wrong thread -apologies.

Steve Parker of Saatchi argues that the ads show that Labour has the stomach for a real fight.

“His view captures the predominant wisdom of political consultants around the world that negative advertising can be effective, certainly more so than positive ads. Attack ads are considered more memorable and more credible, and if pitched astutely can tap into voters’ (often latent) doubts and fears about parties and candidates.”

growstuff

I'm a retired teacher too Foxygloves and my pension is nowhere near what my partner's will be when he eventually retires. I'm not claiming it's fair (neither would he), but he's a professor at a Russell Group uni, is top of his field in the country and will be 68 when he retires. Nevertheless, his pension isn't 75% of his salary and his pension pot is notional - he doesn't have access to the £1,000,000+ in it. Public service pensions don't work like private pension pots.

That article sounds like Spectator sour grapes - I wonder what they think about one of their ex-employees earning over a £1,000,000 for a few after dinner speeches, while still drawing his MP salary?

I absolutely agree with this. I’m another ex teacher and my pension is less than half of my husband’s, also an ex teacher. He was a deputy head whilst I remained a classroom teacher, and of course I took years out to raise my children. I managed to work for only twenty seven years in all. Neither of our pensions are particularly generous, but I still feel well off compared with many others. We can afford whatever we want to afford, which apart from normal living costs, we want to afford to travel, and we do.
I do object to being told that I have a’gold plated’ pension though because I was employed in the public sector. I don’t think my small pension is even brass plated!

DaisyAnne

The recent Labour Party ads have apparently done well and achieved what they were looking to achieve, in the areas they were looking to achieve.

The Tories not only can't add up, but they can't read a graph either. This graph is from the Government's website for the HoC Library.

Starmer was DPP from 2008 to 2013. The graph shows that in this period, prosecution increased steadily ... and then they fell off a cliff. Why do the Tories want to draw attention to this - unless they cannot understand figures or read a graph?

If you look up Ned Zahawi on Twitter, he tells us (and does the maths)
Probibility of successful prosecution:
Starmer = 55% convicted x 24.4% prosecuted = 13.42%
Current government 81% convicted x 3.2% prosecuted = 2.6%

If this is the level of Sunak's intellect, I look forward to the Leader's Debates before the General Election. It will be farcical.

M C Saatchi (of Thatcher fame) think that the Labour ads are very smart politics and show that Labour is serious about winning.

I wonder too if due to the lack of maths teachers some children are being taught by teachers not qualified in that subject. My DS was asked to teach biology but was a chemistry teacher. My SiL has been asked to teach Maths. He teaches physics and chemistry. They both refused saying not fair on the students.
I think the lack of maths and science teachers is impacting on students education overall.

Growstuff well thought of. I cheat and use a triangular tin for the cake but I never thought of bunting calculation.

Rheia

Then it is not just M Sunak who is misguided.
For Labour there is Ed Balls, Diane Abbott and her multi mixup with figures on policing, Stephen Byers and his 7 x 8 = 54! It has always been on a national level.
Are there any politicians in the country who can do math?
At least M Sunak is looking into it.

And then there's Michael Gove who thought all pupils should be achieving above average.

Wheniwasyourage

Mollygo "Understanding the practical applications of area, for decorating or fitting carpets or percentages for discounts or pay increases is useful but I’m still waiting for the day when I can meaningfully use half the base x the height outside teaching."

We used that formula in a quiz recently (could possibly have been the Guardian Thursday quiz) and were both delighted that we remembered it!

Maybe if you wanted to make a triangular cake or work out how much fabric you need to make bunting.

Wheniwasyourage well done for scoring points with that!👏👏

Mollygo "Understanding the practical applications of area, for decorating or fitting carpets or percentages for discounts or pay increases is useful but I’m still waiting for the day when I can meaningfully use half the base x the height outside teaching."

We used that formula in a quiz recently (could possibly have been the Guardian Thursday quiz) and were both delighted that we remembered it!

Grantanow, to be fair, there have always been adults who can’t do simple maths-even more on the basis of “if you don’t use it, you lose it”.

Too many adults can't do simple maths and really have no idea about statistical information and how to read a graph. We're not talking about calculus or A level. Rishi is right to seek improvement but the lack of properly qualified maths teachers in schools will take years to fix and that goes for physics and other sciences, perceived as too hard by many. But the economy is down to the government to fix and the Tories seem to be up a tree.

Then it is not just M Sunak who is misguided.
For Labour there is Ed Balls, Diane Abbott and her multi mixup with figures on policing, Stephen Byers and his 7 x 8 = 54! It has always been on a national level.
Are there any politicians in the country who can do math?
At least M Sunak is looking into it.