Identifying as a different gender

Also some of the data you are quoting was actually redacted by Fair Play To Women themselves...

This is truly worrying

Can we please talk about how to accept trans people and retain women's rights while respecting theirs without fear mongering?

So you have read the quotes from the author of the Swedish study Iam and that although some of those quotes can't be proven by the data, they can't be disproven either? (Not the data I brought up by the way, which are shown as correct in the document)

Did you also know that the statistics for how many trans people reside in prison are missing incredible amounts of data?

But if we do the math between the general population and a medium of estimated trans population in the UK, the general population ( I'm avoiding the c word) offends at 5X the rate of the trans population?

I mean, we can manipulate facts and figures to show anything by creating a sample by prison type, by leaving out trans men or keeping them in and using their data with trans women.

Facts are, we need better data collection and samples taken by impartial people not those using the information act to aquire the sort of data they can manipulate

They were not committing violent crime at the same rate as women, but as the males of their birth sex. Meanwhile, transmen who had been born as women had not become more violent as a result of transition.

^"The study can be divided into two cohorts 1973-1988 and 1989-2003 with the difference being that the latter cohort received adequate mental health provision. The findings show
that transsexual individuals were more likely to be criminal than non-transsexuals of the same birth sex in the first cohort (1973-1988), and no different from their birth sex in the second group (1989-2003)"^

That shows the advantages of "adequate mental health provision", for which there is no provision in current requirements for self-identification.

I’ve looked at the current government research which states male patterns of violence remain in transwomen

Smileless2012

Of course I understand VS I may not agree with you but that doesn't mean I have no understanding of the issues, anymore than you not agreeing with me would signify your lack of understanding.

Cool, we rarely agree on anything

One day

Of course I understand VS I may not agree with you but that doesn't mean I have no understanding of the issues, anymore than you not agreeing with me would signify your lack of understanding.

Ah yes the Swedish study, often claimed by those who wish to prove a male pattern of offending so they can state that trans women cannot possibly be women

Have you actually read it?

I have.

It was a 30 year study if I remember rightly.

300 and something studied

Both trans women and trans men which obviously skews the data

If you read it yourself you will clearly see that those crime rates fell and for the last 5 years of the study the crime rate of trans people were no more than women.

That's a fact

It also ended in 2003 which doesn't cover the last 20 years.

And actually the beginning of the study falls more in line with the crime rates of other marginalised and oppressed groups.

So yes, those statitistics do not fit very well I'm afraid and wasn't it Fair Play For Women who were widely denounced for using it to try and prove trans women as a rape risk when that was not shown in the study at all and aren't shown in actual offending rates anywhere?

Uh huh

Smileless2012

Great post Elegran.

... seconded!

Fair play for women have a lot of information on offending rates if anyone is interested.

Doodledog

I wish people would read posts and respond to what is written and not something they want to argue with.

The woman had to apologise after her class complained over her saying "good afternoon, girls" at the start of a lesson, according to the Mail on Sunday.
Pupils told her that "not everyone here identifies as female".
The following day, she arrived in the classroom to see they had all put their names and preferred pronouns on the board, including one person who used they/them.
There was also a lunchtime protest after she refused to acknowledge their demands.
So hardly just about the word "girls"

You are doing it again! I didn’t say it was just about the word ‘girls’. I said that it wasn’t about pronouns but about the noun ‘girls’ - a different thing altogether. The debacle seems to have started with the word ’girls’ being objected to, but the rest of it - the pronouns on the board, the assembly etc followed on because of the way it was handled - as far as we can tell. Please stop misquoting me and twisting my words. I don’t do it to people, and really don’t like it done to me.

This wasn't about pronouns, but about the use of the word 'girls'

You seem to have things in a different order to what it is said happened.
The assembly came first.
The "Good morning, girls" came next.
The writing of pronouns then happened.
And the pupils began to protest at what they perceived as the teacher's discrimination.
I think it was an admirable action showing a group of pupils who were prepared to support and defend a minority.

The sttaistics on male/female and trans crimes are based on recorded fact. I don't see that as "no solid foundation*

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

"This Swedish cohort study by Dhejne et al. (2011) followed a population of individuals who had undergone surgical and legal sex reassignment involving hormonal and surgical treatment between 1973 and 2003 (324 in total) and compared them to a matched control group of their birth sex. It is crucial to emphasise that this study looks only at those who have undergone hormonal and surgical transition, which is a much tighter group than individuals who self- identify as transgender.
. . .
The researchers state: ‘male-to-females . . . retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.’

MtF transitioners were over 6 times more likely to be convicted of an offence than female comparators and 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent offence. The group had no statistically significant differences from other natal males, for convictions in general or for violent offending.
. . .
Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
^13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%^"

The report also covers attempts to discredit the study. (I'll leave you to read the details yourself) but the conclusion was -

"Has it been discredited?"
Some on-line discussion of this piece describe its findings on offending as discredited. Policy analysts Murray Blackburn MacKenzie conducted a search of the academic literature and were unable to find any academic rebuttal of these specific findings, or any equivalent study which shows the opposite effect to Dhejne et al’s result."

You could try reading one of the articles 😊

Well it's very obvious isn't it it Mollygo

The trans debate and the way it is conducted contains incredible amounts of fear mongering sadly

Thanks VS.
Now perhaps you can answer this.
TIM who do not demonstrate that they are male have possibly been in female toilets for a while.
If that is true, they would go in, use a cubicle, flush the toilet, wash their hands and leave, taking care that their maleness went unnoticed.
So why did the problem arise?
Who caused the problems?
What or who raised awareness that a woman might be male, which has impacted those mentioned in your quotes?

I will add that, when my children were younger, you might see a man (including my DH) taking his little girl into the ladies toilets, with no problems at all.
Why do you think that wasn’t a problem?

No problem Dickens thank you for being understanding. Trans threads can get a bit nasty and I obviously had my defenses up too high

Yes, I see a lot of sense in what you are saying

VioletSky

Sorry, I can see I've over reacted Dickens

The thread was already turning into another row (not to do with you) and it frustrates me how bad the communication gets

Not everyone will agree with me, and some of those people will be trans but
I do think we need the trans distinction in certain situations for the benefit of women and trans people.

I think it would resolve many situations

But when it comes to daily life, what is in other people's pants is no one's business. Not least because other women are actually getting bullied as trans when they are not in toilets and changing spaces. It's happening more and more frequently and when you think about it, bullying in toilets and changing areas for not looking feminine enough, actually has roots in sexism

Basically, what you have just said agrees largely, in principle anyway, with what many on here are saying.

Most appear to accept that transgender individuals should be free to live their lives in peace however they identify, and that only in certain settings "what they have in their pants" is a point where it becomes relevant. Which was the point I made.

There will always be those who are antagonist towards the transgender community - regardless. Those who condemn a trans gender woman for not looking like their ideal of femininity or, I assume, a trans gender man for not appearing sufficiently 'butch'. I come across them on other SM sites - some appear to believe that transgender people are all part of a conspiracy to de-stabilise society for some "woke" leftie re-set which is being engineered to destroy 'the family' by the WEF, or Marxists... or both. It's difficult to explain it because I can't comprehend their thought process. Some just can't grasp that - putting it very basically - both men and women can have the traits of each other's sex in their make up and won't necessarily conform to the stereotype of either. I can only assume they feel threatened in some way by this recognition, I don't know. But there's not much we can do about such people, we can't change their thinking, only prevent them from gaining the upper hand by instituting laws that prevent them from actively harming those that don't 'conform'.

I'm very much 'live-and-let-live'. But there are boundaries which I believe cannot be crossed. And it was one of those that I pointed out. Mentioning them is not an attack on you nor is it meant to infer any thought process on your part.

Thank you for realising that I wasn't attempting to misquote or misrepresent you.

And I'm happy for people to disagree with me and with what I've just written, my voice is just one among many others and I don't have some special 'pipeline' to 'the truth'!

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202304/medium-475848-screenshot-20230423-120619-google.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202304/medium-679981-screenshot-20230423-120555-google.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202304/medium-853363-screenshot-20230423-120518-google.jpg

I mean, pages and pages, choose a story you feel comfy with

Mollygo

VS
^ Not least because other women are actually getting bullied as trans when they are not in toilets and changing spaces.^

Evidence?

I posted the evidence last time you asked for it Mollygo

Elegran

Please don't try to educate me on my own autism. I have a SEN based education myself

Also you are changing the subject, I've already said I over reacted to Dickens and apologised realising I was influenced by other arguments going on as well as past issues and concern this thread would fo the same way. I haven't mentioned bullying either

Can we go back to discussion please as its now become disjointed

VS
^ Not least because other women are actually getting bullied as trans when they are not in toilets and changing spaces.^

Evidence?

It is also true that a very, very low proportion of those wishing to transition were actually shown to have any of those rare variations. The vast majority do so for cultural reasons, and one of the reasons is an experience of abuse in early life which put them of their natural sex.

TIM who do not demonstrate that they are male have possibly been in female toilets for a while.
If that is true, they would go in, use a cubicle, flush the toilet, wash their hands and leave, taking care that their maleness went unnoticed.
So why did the problem arise?
Who caused the problems?

It’s difficult not to conclude that you see yourself as an expert on all things trans Violet. You dismiss any posters taking a view different to yours as simply ill informed or bigoted.

As Elegran reminds us, trans women are as likely to be predatory as men.

VS You posted that you have recently been diagnosed as autistic. Can you shift your view of youself as a victim a bit sideways, and see yourself instead as someone who interprets other people's comments through a filter influenced by your autism? That may explain to you your perception of your interactions, though it won't alter the alienation that people feel when you accuse them of bullying when that was not what they were doing.

Trans women themselves are rarely attacked in women's bathrooms. It's women who are paying the price for other women's fears

Besides, we do not actually know how many trans people there are in this country, so statistics are not sound. Statistics also include men masquerading as women...

Those Statistics have no solid foundation I'm afraid and perpetuate fear that leads to harm to women