Identifying as a different gender

I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around
Like accusations of misogyny for example?
Honestly at least own your own posts.

Oh of course, she won her gender critical belief claim.

It's a difficult one because what goes against one person's conscience may not go against someone else's. I'm not familiar with the Forstater case; I'll see if I can find anything about it on line.

The Warehouse drama was a difficult watch, but very well done.

I agree that it's a difficult question, and I'd hoped we could explore it without accusations flinging around. I asked it of VS as she keeps bringing guidelines into the discussion, but it applies to the teacher in the case, as well as to so many areas on this subject. Conflicts of conscience have been tested in law (eg Forstater) but it seems they may need clearer explanation so that all staff and employees know the score.

That's a very interesting question Doodledog. It takes courage to follow one's conscience which I why I admire 'whistle blowers' who see what's considered to be acceptable but their conscience wont allow them to participate or allow it to continue.

And asking someone to justify their posts is not bullying. It is expected in a discussion or debate.

Doodledog you are not the only gender critical person on this thread, so why my post should be aimed at you I don't know.

Because your post followed the one where I called you out on misogyny? But of course that's where the 'passive' bit of passive aggressive comes in, isn't it - it's easy to deny it. 'Some people', 'the gender critical', so it goes on. Just be honest.

I'm not getting diverted into a discussion of Cat's Eye, though. Trisher used to do that - pick up on a part of a post, or introduce something needling, get a reaction, and before we knew it, the thread was off on another tangent, leaving the difficult questions dangling.

We were talking about whether guidelines were to be adhered to 'just because', and whether someone (anyone) who says that something is true because the guidelines say so is talking sense.

I would say that if you (generic) can identify and trust the experts behind the advice then they should be considered, and I would adhere to them up to a point in a professional capacity if I thought they were irksome or things that I know won't work because they didn't the last three times they were tried. But it is up to the individual how far that becomes a given. I've just watched a disturbing programme on BBC 3 called Death in the Warehouse (or similar). It is about a woman on a management training scheme in an Amazon-style warehouse, who follows the staff manual guidelines until an 'associate' loses her baby. The question it was posing was how far someone should follow their conscience when the guidelines are at odds with it.

Iam64

How come Violet is described as a victim of bullying?

Bullying behaviour is just that bullying behaviour.
The person bullied doesn't have to identify as a victim and I certainly don't regard VS as a victim.
The behaviour however is still bullying.

Katie59

As we are not discussing bullying the only requirement is to be different to the rest, tall, short, fat, thin, race, gender you name it. Some girls tried to bully me because I had a pony, it always has gone on now it’s online too.

It's not good

I was obsessed with horses when I was young, I still have all the books I used to read like Snowy River Brumby

Doodledog

Glorianny

Apparently though if you identify female bullying you are misogynistic, unless you are a famous writer then you aren't!!!

When I read statements like that I know exactly what it is I find worrying about the gender critical-they will not acknowledge truths or accept any argument in any discussion which means they might have to give ground. It's very worrying.

That is not what I said. I am so sick of you twisting my words - every post I make has to be deconstructed and re-explained. I said that MA is not misogynistic. I have seen her speak more than once, and read a lot of her work, and that is clear. Just as with posters on here, her words mean that I don't need to know her personally to pick up on that.

What 'truth' have I failed to acknowledge? I assume that was a dig at me, as the usual passive aggressive 'some people/the gender critical' is attempting to disguise a direct approach. You've 'known' me long enough to know that I'm not going to burst into tears if you direct something at me - well, directly.

Doodledog you are not the only gender critical person on this thread, so why my post should be aimed at you I don't know.
As for MA I think Cat's Eye should be recommended reading for anyone intending to teach. Because it specifically identifies and describes female bullying, which is much more subtle and much less obvious than male bullying and which is often over looked by teachers. Apparently because of that I am misogynistic. Which shows the level some will sink to to win arguments. I know I'm not and I know that my recognition of what girls do to other girls protected many, and enabled me to deal with situations before they escalated. And there is nothing misogynistic about protecting vulnerable girls.

“Now discussing”

As we are not discussing bullying the only requirement is to be different to the rest, tall, short, fat, thin, race, gender you name it. Some girls tried to bully me because I had a pony, it always has gone on now it’s online too.

Spade is a spade is a spade

Good, so can we stop the accusations of bullying then.

I'm not a victim

I'm quite a strong person

I don’t see you as a victim Doodledog, any more than I perceive Violet as a victim. Double standards?

Iam64

How come Violet is described as a victim of bullying?

Because disagreeing with her, or questioning her about her views always is?

How come Violet is described as a victim of bullying?

Oh no! Female bullying is bullying if females by females. So your clips of lesbians being bullied is not misogynistic.
The bullying of females by males is misogynistic

And you've done it again!!

Please ignore my last post.

I am not going to get diverted into a discussion of Margaret Atwood instead of the one about guidelines and whether quoting them as evidence of truth is sensible.

Glorianny

Apparently though if you identify female bullying you are misogynistic, unless you are a famous writer then you aren't!!!

When I read statements like that I know exactly what it is I find worrying about the gender critical-they will not acknowledge truths or accept any argument in any discussion which means they might have to give ground. It's very worrying.

That is not what I said. I am so sick of you twisting my words - every post I make has to be deconstructed and re-explained. I said that MA is not misogynistic. I have seen her speak more than once, and read a lot of her work, and that is clear. Just as with posters on here, her words mean that I don't need to know her personally to pick up on that.

What 'truth' have I failed to acknowledge? I assume that was a dig at me, as the usual passive aggressive 'some people/the gender critical' is attempting to disguise a direct approach. You've 'known' me long enough to know that I'm not going to burst into tears if you direct something at me - well, directly.

I understand glorianny and have the same concerns

I've only come across one other subject where I experience the same thing

It's OK to be wrong, it's how we grow

Apparently though if you identify female bullying you are misogynistic, unless you are a famous writer then you aren't!!!

When I read statements like that I know exactly what it is I find worrying about the gender critical-they will not acknowledge truths or accept any argument in any discussion which means they might have to give ground. It's very worrying.

They types of bullying and abuse more commonly shown in women are well documented

Just as the types of bullying and abuse more commonly shown by men are well documented

Just look at genders by numbers and crime in prison

We cannot have it both ways I am afraid and say men have patterns of behaviour and women don't

Glorianny

Doodledog do you really imagine that every teacher believes in every policy or guideline operating in every school all over the country? Of course they don't. Some of them have ideas which conflict with some of them. But teachers are professional people so they behave in a professional manner and comply with the regulations the school requires. I'm sure they will continue to do so. Of course they are creative and inventive people and faced with restrictions on the terms they are permitted to use they may well find a way around the problem.

For the best example and description of female bullying I recommend you read Margaret Atwood's Cat's Eye. It certainly drew the matter to my attention and enabled me to spot it. Of course she may just be misogynistic as well.

Of course I don't believe that - in fact if you read my post I specifically said that anyone who works with people will have to work within guidelines with which they may disagree.

And I have read Cat's Eye. No, Atwood is not misogynistic. Her writings and her talks are testament to that.