Diane Abbott suspended from the Labour Party

I think Diane was working from the position, fairly commonly held, that racism is a term used to define the discrimination against people based on skin colour. And the terms discrimination or prejudice are used to describe oppression, persecution and brutality in circumstances other than ethnicity.

She was ill advised put that in writing however, because I think that understanding has somewhat changed over the last 20 years. And also because the understanding of racism as related to skin colour and ethnicity is something that many white groups have disagreed with. Also of course because she knows she has been reviled by the media and public in the past (which is in itself a racist response).

In short, nothing Diane Abbott ever does will pass muster for the British media or the majority of the public, because she's a Black woman in politics.

A reminder.

In the letter, she wrote that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people "undoubtedly experience prejudice", which she said is "similar to racism".
She continued: "It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice.
"But they are not all their lives subject to racism.
"In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus.
"In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote.
"And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships."

What she is saying is that black people experience worse racism than anybody else. I’m sorry Glorianny, it can’t be dressed up, what she said was racist. Apologising does not take away her words, or the intent behind them. I think the vast majority of the electorate will agree that suspension was the only course of action, and smokescreens around differing views about the treatment of different factions of one racial group is not going to deflect it.

Jackiest

Glorianny: The majority of the Germans did not support the Nazis. Only 39% of the electorate voted for him in the 1933 election which was the last one before the war.

No, we don't hear their stories, do we.
It's a slur on many German people, some of whom are not here to defend themselves, to say that the majority supported the Nazis.
Our friend was German and her parents were very anti-Nazi as was her whole family and their friends.
She was a young child during WW2 but she remembered how life was then. She, as did others, later married a British soldier and so many Germans were thankful to be liberated from Nazi control.

Oh dear I didn't really compare Diane Abbot with Nazi Germany. I simply said majorities are not always right.
Although actually I don't know how many Jews belong either to Jewish Voice for Labour or The Jewish Labour Movement. Nor I suspect do most posters.
It is simply an example that Jewish people have differing views. Unfortunately the LP only accepts one set of those views.
Jewish Voice For Labour has issued a measured response to what happened.

The suspension of Diane Abbott is yet a further attack on our freedom to debate very important issues in the Labour party. Her original letter was not antisemitic and the way some critics have rounded on her as if it were is cynical and unhelpful.

As a prominent Black Labour MP she cannot avoid discussing the way Black and Asian people are in the frontline of racist oppression – and the way the Black experience has been downplayed in the Labour Party. This was identified by Martin Forde in his report as a hierarchy of racism. The wording of Diane’s letter was unfortunate in that it appeared to compare forms of racism. Diane has rightly apologised for this.

All racism is abhorrent – and she has always fought against it. Historically Jews have been major victims – most notoriously in the time of the Holocaust. As Diane says in her tweeted apology, “Racism takes many forms and it is completely undeniable that Jewish people have suffered its monstrous effects, as have Irish people, Travellers and many others.”

The fight against racism today – certainly in this country – is centred on defence of Black and Asian people. This in no way discounts the experience of Jews. Jewish people in this country of course face prejudice and racism, in particular the Haredim, who in their dress are highly visible, but it is not institutional, structural racism that fundamentally affects their prospects and outcomes.

Yes, Diane’s letter should have been drafted with more care – but this is no ground for suspension from the Labour Party.

Pammie1

Jackiest

Discrimination is not about who suffers discrimination worse. Any discrimination is wrong no matter which direction it is in. Black against white, women against men, Jews against Germans it is still wrong.

I think the Germans’ treatment of the Jews in WW2 went a little beyond discrimination. I have a Jewish in-law, members of whose family were incarcerated and murdered in concentration camps. He won’t knowingly buy anything German manufactured. My grandmother had relatives who died on the Burma Railway in WW2. She boycotted Japanese electronics when they took off in the late 1970’s/early 80’s. I don’t think discrimination is the right terminology in cases like these.

Yes that was about as extreme as you can go. I don't have another word for it or I would use it. There are also the killing fields in Cambodia and the Rwanda mass killings where one race tried to exterminate another.

Jackiest

Discrimination is not about who suffers discrimination worse. Any discrimination is wrong no matter which direction it is in. Black against white, women against men, Jews against Germans it is still wrong.

I think the Germans’ treatment of the Jews in WW2 went a little beyond discrimination. I have a Jewish in-law, members of whose family were incarcerated and murdered in concentration camps. He won’t knowingly buy anything German manufactured. My grandmother had relatives who died on the Burma Railway in WW2. She boycotted Japanese electronics when they took off in the late 1970’s/early 80’s. I don’t think discrimination is the right terminology in cases like these.

Glorianny: The majority of the Germans did not support the Nazis. Only 39% of the electorate voted for him in the 1933 election which was the last one before the war.

I agree with your analysis, Jackiest.

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

She has apologised, she isn't anti-semitic, nor is Corbyn. They are pro-Palestine. The weaponising of anti-semitism to purge left wingers and Palestinian supporters from the LP is one of the most disgusting occurrences in its history. It needs to be recognised for what it is.

Why did the Jewish Labour Movement support her suspension?

Because the Jewish Labour Movement is to the right of the LP and support Israel as does Kier Starmer.
The purging of the left wing and of Jewish left wing members is about the most prejudiced actions ever seen in a democratic party. Jewish Voice for Labour speaks for them. But they are the wrong sort of Jews so the actions against them are not apparently anti-semitic www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/the-ehrc-has-spoken-labour-is-no-place-for-left-wing-jews/

But the majority of Jews themselves don’t agree with the Jewish Voice for Labour standpoint as I understand it, so the Jewish Labour Movement accepting it will accord with the majority perspective. Whatever your perspective though, there’s no denying that as is unfortunately too often the case for her, she engaged her mouth rather than her brain on this occasion, she’s seriously back-pedalled so she knows she was in the wrong.

But does standing up for what is right necessarily accord with what is the majority view? The majority of Germans supported the Nazis.
What she said was unfortunate but it wasn't anti-semitic. She was wrong and she apologised.
If you read the link I posted I find the idea that left wing Jews are afraid to attend meetings and speak up about Israeli aggression for fear of suspension far more concerning than a letter to a newspaper.

I can see that from your perspective that would be concerning, but in this situation the different factions are drawing their own conclusions based on their belief systems, it isn’t comparable to Nazi Germany in any respect.

What I’m not understanding is what you think, given what she said, should have happened to Diane Abbott, surely she hung herself here, it was her own doing?

tickingbird

I don’t care what Google says. Being Jewish is a race. We have been persecuted for centuries. It’s nothing to do with religion. You can’t just stop being Jewish. Many, many Jews don’t follow any organised religion but they’re still Jews. The nazis wanted to rid the planet of Jews regardless of any religious following. Anti sémitism is alive and not just well but flourishing and hypocrites abound.

This.
Well said tickingbird.
Jews have indeed been persecuted for years. Diane Abbot knows this as well as the rest of us and therefore what she said was unacceptable.

I do not give a toss about the internal politics of the Labour party and how many defintions of semitism they have, they are irrelevant, let the enthusiasts take that discussion to another thread.

The facts are that the letter Diane Abbott sent to the Observer. I take the Observer, I have read it, was offensive throughout.

Apart from anything else by saying that to experience racism your ancesteors had to be manacled on a slave ship, not only does she excludes the possibility that anyone born in a part of Africa not affected by the slave trade can suffer from racism, but neither can anyone of Asian or Middle Eastern or any other non-European origin.

I am afraid that by this letter Diane Abbott has revealed herself as a racist herself.

Oh I think what I found was the whole letter.
The letter is no more anti semitic than it is anti Irish or anti traveller people so why are all the comments about anti semitic? She is wrong in thinking her racism was the only one that existed. As I said above all discrimination is wrong does not matter in which direction or which section of the comunity is suffering worse than another.
I will see if it will let me quote the letter so everyone can read it

Racism is black and white
Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from “racism” (“Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated”, Comment). They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable.

It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships.
Diane Abbott
House of Commons, London SW1

Actually I don’t think the quote did demonstrate antisemitism. It was Abbot’s argument that only people of colour had to sit at the back of the bus or were denied the vote, as opposed to people who looked white but were Jewish. I don’t know why the quote was deleted, save that it was selective and not representative of what Abbot said when she minimised prejudice against Jewish people, likening it to prejudice against people with red hair.

I was wanting to use the quote to demonstrate the antisemitism but GN obviously consider it anti semitic and have deleted it, which makes it tricky.

If she isn’t anti semitic why has she apologised?

Corbyn attended a wreath laying ceremony for terrorists who
murdered an Israeli Olympic Team, he didn’t apologise, he
said ‘I was there but i don’t know if I was involved’ ! 🤥

This is the best I can do - suggesting that only people of colour experience racism all their lives, not white people who may experience ‘prejudice’ by virtue of being Jewish or having red hair. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65365978

Has anyone got a link to the actual letter. All I can find is two paragraphs titled Racism is black and white

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

She has apologised, she isn't anti-semitic, nor is Corbyn. They are pro-Palestine. The weaponising of anti-semitism to purge left wingers and Palestinian supporters from the LP is one of the most disgusting occurrences in its history. It needs to be recognised for what it is.

Why did the Jewish Labour Movement support her suspension?

Because the Jewish Labour Movement is to the right of the LP and support Israel as does Kier Starmer.
The purging of the left wing and of Jewish left wing members is about the most prejudiced actions ever seen in a democratic party. Jewish Voice for Labour speaks for them. But they are the wrong sort of Jews so the actions against them are not apparently anti-semitic www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/the-ehrc-has-spoken-labour-is-no-place-for-left-wing-jews/

But the majority of Jews themselves don’t agree with the Jewish Voice for Labour standpoint as I understand it, so the Jewish Labour Movement accepting it will accord with the majority perspective. Whatever your perspective though, there’s no denying that as is unfortunately too often the case for her, she engaged her mouth rather than her brain on this occasion, she’s seriously back-pedalled so she knows she was in the wrong.

But does standing up for what is right necessarily accord with what is the majority view? The majority of Germans supported the Nazis.
What she said was unfortunate but it wasn't anti-semitic. She was wrong and she apologised.
If you read the link I posted I find the idea that left wing Jews are afraid to attend meetings and speak up about Israeli aggression for fear of suspension far more concerning than a letter to a newspaper.

Galaxy

I think that quote is deeply antisemitic.

I read it as she is saying that racism only exists in a white/black context. I see it as denying that antisemitism is racist.

But then, I'm having trouble differentiating between racism and racial prejudice.

Wow! I didn’t see that coming. Will now read the thread to see what you all think.

I think that quote is deeply antisemitic.

Selective quoting doesn’t make the point for you.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

“Barry Sheerman’s first reaction on hearing that two prominent Jewish businessmen supposedly missed out on peerages is to think about ‘silver shekels’, alluding in one fell swoop to both classic and modern antisemitic tropes about Jews corrupting politics with money and being more loyal to Israel than their own countries."
antisemitism.org/caa-calls-for-labour-and-co-operative-mp-barry-sheerman-to-lose-the-whip-following-doubly-antisemitic-silver-shekels-tweet/
MP Barry Sheerman “Apparently there has been a bit of a run on silver shekels!” After Twitter users asked what he was talking about, he posted another tweet, seemingly referring to the first, saying: “Apparently Richard Desmond & Philip Green were on the original list for seats in the House of Lords!”
Sheerman did not lose the whip, but then he is a Labour Friend of Israel and so beloved of the right wing Jewish Chronicle

Grany

There is no anti semitism it was all made up manufactured to get rid of Corbyn. The anti semitism in party is Starmer getting rid of actual Jews who are anti racist

I don't know how you could state that in the light of what Diane Abbott has just written 😲

A pity, despite her gaffes, I always rather liked Diane.