The Guardian has apologised after a cartoon depicting BBC chairman Richard Sharp was criticised as antisemitic.

Wyllow3

growstuff

Wyllow I'm not sure what point you're making with the link to the Guardian. I think it makes sense.

Just showing Guardians usual viewpoint - ie a racist cartoon is not within normal range. I looked for an article that addressed anti-semitism directly.

But that article isn't racist. It's highlighting anti-semiticism and pointing out the limitations of the focus on the holocaust because many people don't see a connection between the holocaust and current forms of anti-semiticism.

Iam64

He wasn’t wrong in the intended message about Johnson/Tory sleaze.
He was absolutely wrong not to realise -if we accept that ridiculous excuse - that it was also anti semitic

But I'm not 100% convinced that he did realise it was.

Originally, I thought like Farzanah and then when I looked more closely, I was persuaded it was anti-semitic, but now I know that the octopus trope isn't exclusively anti-semitic, I really don't know. It didn't occur to me that Sharp had been given so-called Jewish features. It just seemed like a cruel cartoon. I had no idea that Sharp is Jewish.

There does not have to be a link between the Holocaust and current anti-semitism. The kind of anti-semitism we are seeing, is a continuation of the anti-semitism that has beset the Jews since Christianity made them outside the law for being 'guilty' of crucifying Jesus Christ.

Rather the Holocaust came out of nearly 2 millenia of racist persecution the Jews have suffered , which included at all times and in all centuries massacres of jewish communities. The Holocust simply built on this history of massacres or pogroms to build to a level where an attempt was made to kill every Jew in Europe.

As OP I am digressing frm the thread I started by drawing people's attention to an interview and book review in today's Observer. Anthony Seldon has written a book about Boris called 'Boris at 10' (Boris has been mentioned on this thread, so i am not digressing too much.)

There is a double page interview with Anthony Seldon and a seperate almost full page review. The book reduces Boris to a kit of parts and lays out his deficiencies in deep detail. I am definitely buying it.

growstuff

Wyllow3

growstuff

Wyllow I'm not sure what point you're making with the link to the Guardian. I think it makes sense.

Just showing Guardians usual viewpoint - ie a racist cartoon is not within normal range. I looked for an article that addressed anti-semitism directly.

But that article isn't racist. It's highlighting anti-semiticism and pointing out the limitations of the focus on the holocaust because many people don't see a connection between the holocaust and current forms of anti-semiticism.

I'm putting things badly today. I put the article in to show exactly what you said, ie no racism and a thoughtful article and on that topic exactly what i would expect from the Guardian.

(as in considered, but the cartoon wasn't)

Oh, OK! I understand now. :-)

I read that too MOnica. Unfortunately, I can't afford £25 for the book, so I'll wait until it's in the library or a charity shop. It looks interesting. Seldon is no fool.

Did you read the article MOnica? I agree with the writer. Every secondary school pupil in the UK learns about the holocaust and is shocked. However, they also think that it couldn't happen today, that it was uniquely German and don't link it with the anti-semiticism prevalent today. I'd go further and say they don't make connections with the way people stereotype others (not just Jews), which hasn't changed that much, but I won't go there. If the UK population were to be transported back in time to 1930s Germany, I wonder how different the outcome would have been.

The author is saying that society (possibly via education) needs to go further than teaching about the holocaust and maybe needs to address how anti-semiticism currently manifests itself. I don't think people think about blaming Jews for murdering Christ. They're more likely to believe the conspiracy-theory stereotypes about Jews controlling the world (eg George Soros) and/or associate all Jews with the actions of the state of Israel.

The problem is growstuff that many people including Jews are convinced that the horrors of Hitler’s time were simply the culmination of centuries of Jewish hatred. The documentation is all there over 2 millenia, that's 20 decades.

Shanie They are right, see my post just before my last post.

The Jews were forced into first being goldsmiths and moneylenders and then financiers and bankers because they were excluded from so many other professions and from owning land.

What we are seeing now is the modern version of the problems they have had since medieval times. Several massacres of jews occurred in the UK. One of the worst was in York in 1189/90. There was one in London as well. There was a massacre on Norwich in 1144 and in 1236, there was another massacre in London

I agree with you Shanie. I've never understood the hatred of Jews, so it's a puzzle to me, although I've discussed it many times with Jewish friends. To be honest, I've never understood the hatred of any "other" group, whether it be Catholics, dissenters or whatever, but it happened throughout history.

I've studied nineteenth century/early twentieth century European anti-semiticism and it wasn't about Jews killing Christ. Many of the people who hate(d) Jews aren't/weren't even Christian (or any other religion). It wasn't even about Jews all being rich bankers (or whatever). The Polish Jews in the ghettos were poor. I think people distrusted the internationalism of Jews and thought they were more loyal to their religion and family than their country. Judaism was associated with Bolshevism, which was feared. You can see hints of it in the loony conspiracy theories about the WEF and so-called globalism.

If I'm honest, I don't understand it, but I know it exists.

growstuff the persecution of Jesus Christ was the start, but like anything, once something starts, particularly over 2,000 years ago, the cause is soon forgotten.

I think there is an instinct for society to want scapegoats, someone to blame for anything that goes wrong and to build society cohesion on blaming hating one group for societial ills.

Anti-semitism did abate, although never go away, when we had an influx of immigrants, who were easily identifiable because their skin was a different colour, and they became our scapegoats for crime anti-social behaviour, and all the rest.

But a hatred of those who have money or who deal with money is always with us. Look at how, even today, we hate banks, rail against bankers, impute the worst of motives to them, love news stories that reveal their domestic problems or bad behaviour, both the companies and the individuals that run them.

This connection between money, banking and Jews, is what makes anti-semitism such an ingrained and institutionalised problem with left-wingers of all persuasions.

Incidentally, born and brought up a catholic, even in the 1970s, catholics too were distrusted for their internationalism and because they looked to a spiritual leader who was not British.

I come from an army family, my grandfather, great uncles, father and brothers, catholics everyone, were all professional soldiers, several died and won gallantry awards fighting in the British army, yet I heard and read people make arguments that catholics should not be in the army, nor in any post that involved the countries governance because they owed allegiance to an Italian pope and that if he told them to stop fighting, for example, or follow a policy that was to Britain's disadvantage, they would, because their first allegiance was to the pope. I think if a member of the royal family marries a catholic, they are still automatically excluded from the line of accession. This happened to the Duke of Kent's son and also his brother when they married catholic women.

However this is gone and forgotten now - but of course catholics were not seen as being bankers or financiers.

You are right about scapegoating, it seems like forever there has been "us" and"non us".

However it seems to me its often a way of the people in power diverting peoples attention from the ills they create themselves, or their lack of compassion for those in need in their own society.

I wish it were otherwise, but it seems to happen so frequently.

For the left it is also the issue of Israel, so concern for oppressed people therefore Israel is bad, and eventually that moves to concern for oppressed people equals Jews are bad.
And there is something about money that's difficult to articulate, something again about being the saviour of the oppressed.
Also it is naive to think that those on the left cant be racist, homophobic, misogynistic etc, it just takes different forms to the right. Not really a case of goodies and baddies unfortunately.

Is anybody resigning. or being forced to resign?

Slightly off thread, but in the early '90s I lived in York round the corner from a road called Jewbury which is just outside the city walls. I was taking my dog for a late night walk in that road when I cane across a small group of Jewish men saying prayers there, it was very moving.

growstuff good post 22.30 👍🏻

Galaxy Hatred of Jews pre-dates the formation of the state of Israel or even the aim for any Jewish state. Israel exists as a result of persecution in just about every country where Jews lived.

We are going out to dinner this evening with close friends (we have often holidayed together, their children are the same age as two of ours) who are Jewish. Depending on how the conversation flows I shall endeavour to broach this subject.

We have been friends for 37 years and it has never been a subject of discussion.

GrannyGravy13

growstuff good post 22.30 👍🏻

I would absolutely agree with you, GG13, it's a very good post.

I was busy yesterday and only came back to this thread this morning. I'm glad to see that some sanity and objectivity has returned to it.

I was absolutely horrified at being labeled 'anti-semitic' at one point. I would echo what growstuff said:

I've never understood the hatred of Jews, so it's a puzzle to me, ... To be honest, I've never understood the hatred of any "other" group, whether it be Catholics, dissenters or whatever, but it happened throughout history.

I also note what MOnica said about Roman Catholics in her post at 09:14. I live in a formerly strong RC area in the NE and I volunteer at a former RC institution and it has brought home to me how pernicious anti Catholicism was for the last 400 years, and yes, I do recall it existing in the 1950s and '60s.

I had a close look at the whole cartoon and as far as I could see the only really suspect element was the octopus in the Goldman Sachs box, though, as the firm has extensive reach and influence worldwide I would see it referring to that, rather than to its Jewish founders. I didn't see it as being a direct reference to Sharp, only a reference to the fact that he had worked for them, as did our PM, whose head is in the box...

The pig is obvious enough if you consider the constant accusations of tories having their 'noses in the trough' and the belief that pigs like to live in sh*t..

I am actually concerned and horrified at the stranglehold that 'wealth' and the pursuit of it has on our world when the planet, and many of its human occupants, is dying under our noses for lack of sustainable investment and help for the poorest. But that's another topic, isn't it?

Yes I know growstuff but within the left of the labour party it's one of the explanations. Not the only one of course.

The more I read about the whole loan affair, the more dodgy it seems. There's a lot more to come out - if it ever does. What on earth has happened to the money? Sharp should never have been appointed at the BBC. The role of Sam Blyth and Simon Case needs investigating. And what about Johnson himself?

I hope this cartoon doesn't distract from the serious issues.

That's one of the reasons I am fairly irritated with the guardian.

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

growstuff good post 22.30 👍🏻

I would absolutely agree with you, GG13, it's a very good post.

I was busy yesterday and only came back to this thread this morning. I'm glad to see that some sanity and objectivity has returned to it.

I was absolutely horrified at being labeled 'anti-semitic' at one point. I would echo what growstuff said:

I've never understood the hatred of Jews, so it's a puzzle to me, ... To be honest, I've never understood the hatred of any "other" group, whether it be Catholics, dissenters or whatever, but it happened throughout history.

I also note what MOnica said about Roman Catholics in her post at 09:14. I live in a formerly strong RC area in the NE and I volunteer at a former RC institution and it has brought home to me how pernicious anti Catholicism was for the last 400 years, and yes, I do recall it existing in the 1950s and '60s.

I had a close look at the whole cartoon and as far as I could see the only really suspect element was the octopus in the Goldman Sachs box, though, as the firm has extensive reach and influence worldwide I would see it referring to that, rather than to its Jewish founders. I didn't see it as being a direct reference to Sharp, only a reference to the fact that he had worked for them, as did our PM, whose head is in the box...

The pig is obvious enough if you consider the constant accusations of tories having their 'noses in the trough' and the belief that pigs like to live in sh*t..

I am actually concerned and horrified at the stranglehold that 'wealth' and the pursuit of it has on our world when the planet, and many of its human occupants, is dying under our noses for lack of sustainable investment and help for the poorest. But that's another topic, isn't it?

Good post MaizieD.

Join the club, I was obliquely called a troll with multiple, simultaneous incarnations on GN.

Also, after much exhortation that I should understand the significance of a squid as an anti-Jewish symbol, it turns out its not an anti-Jewish symbol at all.

Galaxy

Yes I know growstuff but within the left of the labour party it's one of the explanations. Not the only one of course.

That's why the whole issue gets confused. Jews cannot be held responsible for the behaviour of the state of Israel, although I've now seen the term Israel-loving Jews.

For extreme left-wingers, anti-semiticism is more likely to be based on a perception that Jews are involved in global capitalism.