Lords lay into the governments illegal migration bill

Oh really? It has scales on the x- and y- axes, and a legend. Even a source.

Maybe you are just having trouble interpreting it.

Unfortunately your nice graph is totally illegible even when I try to enlarge it.

V3 the only thing that is messy is your interpretation of the graph.

Growth of migration from the Blair years?

Here's a nice graph.

Blair left office in 2007, in case you'd forgotten. Huge net immigration since then, not because of Blair but because of tory policies, I suspect.

I'll let someone else talk about why healthcare etc has declined over the last 13 years, but I'm thinking its pretty obvious.

Don't try to "out-quantitative" me ronib, it could get messy.

Students from other countries isn't exclusive to Britain. My daughter's PhD is being funded by her Scandinavian place of residence.

Volver 3 yes as a bit of qualitative opinion your post was average. Bit short on the quantitative side wouldn’t you agree? Demographic trends - growth of migration from the Blair years - lack of affordable homes/healthcare provision etc. Not so simple as you claim. Bit too mono causal.

maddyone

volver thanks for that

However I wasn’t actually talking about dependents being supported financially by the British government, but it’s good to know that they need a certain amount of money to support themselves, although the amounts mentioned don’t seem large and possibly wouldn’t support them completely. However, you will notice I mentioned infrastructure meaning housing, schools for their children (which we do pay for) health care (which we do pay for) use of public transport or the many pot holed roads, increased traffic meaning increased pollution, and so on. There is certainly a cost to the British government although of course students buy food and other items which adds to the economy and they pay fees to the universities which helps fund them. Obviously it’s multi faceted. But our crumbling and inadequate infrastructure means that this policy is being pursued without proper thought as to the consequences on the people who are already here, and in my opinion is misguided, until or unless, proper facilities are put in place to accommodate all these extra people.

Yes, they certainly do pay university fees - in most cases, three times the amount home students pay. Don't underestimate how much they're worth to the HE sector, which couldn't afford to run some courses without them, and the economy as a whole. Not only that, but many on Masters and postgraduate courses return to their home countries and go into senior jobs or academia and pay an important role in international networking, which benefits the UK.

volver3

maddyone you said that we diverge on immigration and we do.

The reason we have a crumbling and inadequate infrastructure - or that people believe that we do, I should say - is that the Government haven't invested in anything for years. Yet, for many years, we have welcomed students and their dependants. Many of whom will want to stay here and give us the benefits of their knowledge and skills.

But now we say we can't accommodate them. So what's changed? Priorities have changed, that's what. An ability to see past short term solutions and build a society that will work properly for years to come. The present government doesn't like foreigners, who they think are going to come and use up all our precious resources. Or maybe they don't think that, but they pander to the people that do. They think that the only thing that matters is how much money a person has. If you're rich, come on in. Have a seat in the Lords and give me a backhander. You're an award winning artist, fallen on hard times? Tough, off you go.

Good post, V3 👏

maddyone you said that we diverge on immigration and we do.

The reason we have a crumbling and inadequate infrastructure - or that people believe that we do, I should say - is that the Government haven't invested in anything for years. Yet, for many years, we have welcomed students and their dependants. Many of whom will want to stay here and give us the benefits of their knowledge and skills.

But now we say we can't accommodate them. So what's changed? Priorities have changed, that's what. An ability to see past short term solutions and build a society that will work properly for years to come. The present government doesn't like foreigners, who they think are going to come and use up all our precious resources. Or maybe they don't think that, but they pander to the people that do. They think that the only thing that matters is how much money a person has. If you're rich, come on in. Have a seat in the Lords and give me a backhander. You're an award winning artist, fallen on hard times? Tough, off you go.

Yes GSM

Exactly my point GSM.

X posts maddy.

The dependants will presumably require healthcare and, in the case of children, school places - and if they are not living in university-owned or privately-owned student-only accommodation they will need to rent private housing suitable for families, thereby taking it out of the market, will they not? Is this not an additional burden on already overstretched resources?

volver thanks for that

However I wasn’t actually talking about dependents being supported financially by the British government, but it’s good to know that they need a certain amount of money to support themselves, although the amounts mentioned don’t seem large and possibly wouldn’t support them completely. However, you will notice I mentioned infrastructure meaning housing, schools for their children (which we do pay for) health care (which we do pay for) use of public transport or the many pot holed roads, increased traffic meaning increased pollution, and so on. There is certainly a cost to the British government although of course students buy food and other items which adds to the economy and they pay fees to the universities which helps fund them. Obviously it’s multi faceted. But our crumbling and inadequate infrastructure means that this policy is being pursued without proper thought as to the consequences on the people who are already here, and in my opinion is misguided, until or unless, proper facilities are put in place to accommodate all these extra people.

Students with dependants isn’t that unusual. I was one at both undergrad and 2 x postgrad level, and was surrounded by others. The University of Sussex is just one that, as a result, has family accommodation, and it pretty much always has a long waiting list.
Others that I know of include Oxford (mainly for postgrads), Exeter, Bristol, Lancaster, Manchester, Leeds, Southampton, York, Queen Mary’s University of London, School of Tropical Medicine (only postgrads, obviously) . I’m sure there are others.

I just had a quick look at the governments info about students' dependants.

Direct lift from there:

Your partner and child must each have a certain amount of money available to them. This is in addition to the money you must have to support yourself.

How much money they need depends on where you will be studying. They must have either:

£845 a month (for up to 9 months) for courses in London
£680 a month (for up to 9 months) for courses outside London
If you’re applying at the same time as your partner or child (you’re applying together as a family), you’ll need to prove you have both money to pay for your course and to support yourself and additional money for each of them.

So, they have to support themselves. Another urban myth exploded.

maddyone I should have said "thank you" for what you wrote at 10:05, I meant to but I forgot.

Foreign students bring in a deal of money so they will always be encouraged. As for their dependants few 18 to 21 year olds will have dependants unless aged parents are considered their childrens’ Dependants which is highly unlikely.

The dependents of students are allowed to work apart from doctors or dentists in training. FYI

volver I would be surprised of any of the students were seventeen, because students are normally eighteen when they enter university. The clue is in the word ‘dependents.’ And I fail to see how eighteen year olds have dependents. However some of the students are post grad and so they are older and therefore may have dependents.

Why do you think the students' dependents can't be working?

Not all students are 17 years old, you know.

It’s a rule that needs to be scrapped imo, for all the reasons you state maddy. I fail to see the logic in it.

I liked volver’s expert analysis based on scientific evidence very much when we were talking about Covid. She talked a good talk. Although she admitted she was not a Covid expert.

Re immigration volver and I veer away from one another. That’s okay, we’re all allowed different opinions. Remember, we’re talking opinions on here. This is an online chat forum mainly frequented by an older female demographic. Other demographics are free to join in.

I’ve recently observed on the media that whilst legal immigration was just over half a million last year, this year, based on current knowledge, legal immigration is projected to be around one million people. The numbers arriving on boats are small fry in comparison. Many of the visas are given to students, who apparently then have the right to bring their dependents with them, and sometimes this can be as many as seven other people. I’m at a loss as to understand how a student can support seven people, or indeed two, three, or four people, but these are the rules. All those perfectly legal arrivals require housing, utilities, education, health care, dentists, use of public transport or road space for a car, and so on. Assuming these figures are correct, I just don’t know how our infrastructure can support this huge influx of people when there is already insufficient housing, our roads are crumbling, our rivers and seas are already being polluted, our schools have insufficient places, the provision of health care is totally overstretched already, and in many areas no one can a dentist willing to treat them. And since so many of these people are students and their dependents, they are not filling the many job vacancies that employers cannot fill. I have no answers and I don’t think any of you does either when the government fails to act.

V3 so far this morning I have had an apology, a thank you and a very good from you. I shall quit whilst I am ahead.

Oh, very good.

My pseudoscience keeps your lights on, quite literally.

I do enjoy the posts where people try to imply I don't know what I'm talking about. They're a good laugh.