Labour will be a major reforming government

Jeremy Corbyn has never been and is not antisemitic. Media manipulation was employed to make sure that he could not win an election and make this country a fairer and more equal society. The same media manipulation portrayed Anne Widdecombe and Jacob Reece Mogg as "national treasures" and the people on here who objected to the idea of a different sort of society lapped it up.

I listened to what Corbyn said not the media and watched what he did.

Glorianny

Casdon

You don’t get it Glorianny despite the evidence. Here are Corbyn’s results on the latest YouGov poll.
Fame (have heard of) 94%
Popularity (liked by) 19%
Disliked by 51%
Neutral. 24%
He’s the 34th most popular politician, I won’t sport with your intelligence by asking you to check who comes above him in the polls, but as well as a lot of Labour politicians past and present there are plenty of others you wouldn’t rate.

I've looked at that poll Casdon It is quite hilarious.

The point about Corbyn is that had Starmer any sense whatsoever he would have done what Tony Blair did with the left wing MPs when he was campaigning, treat them as respected but slightly out of touch idealists who had no relevance to what he was doing. The problem is that Starmer has neither the integrity nor the confidence to do that. He sees threats everywhere. He thinks he can somehow sift out anyone standing as a candidate with any left wing leanings and must do so before the Tories do it. It means he has staff sifting through social media and dismissing effective and popular local candidates because they once "liked" Nicola Sturgeon or tweeted about the Green party. It's not only ridiculous, it's paranoiac and it isn't just about Corbyn

The poll is representative Glorianny, like it or lump it.
Starmer is taking charge. That’s as it should be, and if he wasn’t doing it somebody else with their finger on the pulse would be. You and I are destined, as always, to disagree about this. The left have been Labour’s Achilles heel for too long, just as the right are for The Tories. Let the left form their own party, follow their own star, and see where it gets them.

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

You don’t get it Glorianny despite the evidence. Here are Corbyn’s results on the latest YouGov poll.
Fame (have heard of) 94%
Popularity (liked by) 19%
Disliked by 51%
Neutral. 24%
He’s the 34th most popular politician, I won’t sport with your intelligence by asking you to check who comes above him in the polls, but as well as a lot of Labour politicians past and present there are plenty of others you wouldn’t rate.

I've looked at that poll Casdon It is quite hilarious.

The point about Corbyn is that had Starmer any sense whatsoever he would have done what Tony Blair did with the left wing MPs when he was campaigning, treat them as respected but slightly out of touch idealists who had no relevance to what he was doing. The problem is that Starmer has neither the integrity nor the confidence to do that. He sees threats everywhere. He thinks he can somehow sift out anyone standing as a candidate with any left wing leanings and must do so before the Tories do it. It means he has staff sifting through social media and dismissing effective and popular local candidates because they once "liked" Nicola Sturgeon or tweeted about the Green party. It's not only ridiculous, it's paranoiac and it isn't just about Corbyn

The poll is representative Glorianny, like it or lump it.
Starmer is taking charge. That’s as it should be, and if he wasn’t doing it somebody else with their finger on the pulse would be. You and I are destined, as always, to disagree about this. The left have been Labour’s Achilles heel for too long, just as the right are for The Tories. Let the left form their own party, follow their own star, and see where it gets them.

The problem with Starmer "taking charge" Casdon is that no-one is quite sure what he is taking charge of. He has abandoned the promises he made when he became Labour leader, he has failed to stand by or to support what are established Labour policies and has made what can only be described as nebulous pledges. It is so easy to blame the left wing of the party and perhaps, when there is not the outstanding victory Labour should be able to achieve in the next GE, that is what he will do.
The policies which were supported by many in the 2017 election should be the ones he is presenting and championing. Unfortunately he is instead wavering, vacillating and showing he is generally untrustworthy. Corbyn lost elections because the press targeted and vilified him . Starmer might win, but it will be because the Tories lose. As for what policies he will bring in, well who knows?

I do wish those who support Starmer and believe in him could move the discussion on from Corbyn who is simply now the left wing MP he has always been, and not a major player. It seems to me that the lack of any real concepts of the benefits Starmer will bring, means the only real way to support him is to continue with the old left-wing Corbynista argument. Which actually proves my point. Starmer is vacuous and unreliable.

Look, we all know that you don’t like Starmer Glorianny for all the alleged wrongdoings you accuse him of. He isn’t going anywhere yet, and if he does the direction of the party has moved away from the left, his formula is working for the electorate, so he will be replaced with somebody of like mind. Why not move away from Labour to a party which is moving in the direction you want it to?

Glorianny when did we have a far left government? blaming the press for every failure

Casdon

Look, we all know that you don’t like Starmer Glorianny for all the alleged wrongdoings you accuse him of. He isn’t going anywhere yet, and if he does the direction of the party has moved away from the left, his formula is working for the electorate, so he will be replaced with somebody of like mind. Why not move away from Labour to a party which is moving in the direction you want it to?

Well I had hoped for a reasoned and clear explanation of exactly why I was wrong, which set out the policies Starmer will pursue. Instead I get the usual "You don't like Starmer". I've explained clearly why I (and many others) don't trust him, so instead of telling me to get out, why not tell me what he stands for ? Possibly because no one really knows.

Anniebach

Glorianny when did we have a far left government? blaming the press for every failure

No one is asking for a far left government Annie just a government which shows some commitment to Labour values.
A majority of people want to re-nationalise the railways.
A majority of people want the NHS to be properly funded
A majority of people want more social housing.
What does Starmer want? Who knows???

Best wait until closer to the election, yes ?

Corbyn lost elections because the press targeted and vilified him .

Yes I know the press favour the right, and any left leaning party has to deal with that. But the left wing of the Labour party - the Corbyn supporters - need to accept that Labour lost the last election because a majority of the voters did not want Corbyn as PM. It's as simple as that. I agreed with a lot of what Corbyn said, but he wasn't a leader.
Labour have to appeal to enough of the centre and centre- right to be in government, and that is what Starmer is trying to do. I want to be rid of this right wing disgraceful government, and we can only do that by ensuring Labour win the election.

The combination of Corbyn and McDonnell was fatal.

Glorianny

Casdon

Look, we all know that you don’t like Starmer Glorianny for all the alleged wrongdoings you accuse him of. He isn’t going anywhere yet, and if he does the direction of the party has moved away from the left, his formula is working for the electorate, so he will be replaced with somebody of like mind. Why not move away from Labour to a party which is moving in the direction you want it to?

Well I had hoped for a reasoned and clear explanation of exactly why I was wrong, which set out the policies Starmer will pursue. Instead I get the usual "You don't like Starmer". I've explained clearly why I (and many others) don't trust him, so instead of telling me to get out, why not tell me what he stands for ? Possibly because no one really knows.

In summary, he stands for a moderate government which will attempt in the first term to pragmatically and within financial constraints return public services to the UK we had when Labour left power last time and to improve relationships with Europe and the rest of the world so that we are more economically viable going forward. I have no intention of listing every single issue, you know already although you’re being obtuse.
Are you going to answer my question next, that’s only fair?

Do you mean why don't I move away from the Labour Party Casdon?
Well I'm simply sticking by what Starmer said" Labour are a Broad Church and must remain a Broad Church."
So this www.independentlabour.org.uk/2023/04/03/a-tale-of-two-keirs-labour-its-broad-church/
Of course I doubt if Starmer still thinks that. He said it in 2017 and he's changed his mind about everything else.

Anniebach

I listened to what Corbyn said not the media and watched what he did.

Me too. Not a very pleasant man, and he's had 40 years to do something, guess what he's done nothing but stir up hate. Labour party got rid, a liability.

Glorianny

Do you mean why don't I move away from the Labour Party Casdon?
Well I'm simply sticking by what Starmer said" Labour are a Broad Church and must remain a Broad Church."
So this www.independentlabour.org.uk/2023/04/03/a-tale-of-two-keirs-labour-its-broad-church/
Of course I doubt if Starmer still thinks that. He said it in 2017 and he's changed his mind about everything else.

I suspect your definitions of broad are just different Glorianny.

Casdon

Glorianny

Do you mean why don't I move away from the Labour Party Casdon?
Well I'm simply sticking by what Starmer said" Labour are a Broad Church and must remain a Broad Church."
So this www.independentlabour.org.uk/2023/04/03/a-tale-of-two-keirs-labour-its-broad-church/
Of course I doubt if Starmer still thinks that. He said it in 2017 and he's changed his mind about everything else.

I suspect your definitions of broad are just different Glorianny.

That would make sense Casdon but only makes me more worried as I suspect Starmer's definition of "socialism" might have more in common with those known as "National Socialists" than with any known Labour party definition. Especially given his disregard for the democratic process within the party.

MayBee70

Boris Johnson lied in parliament about Starmers role in the Jimmy Saville case and was made to withdraw his remark. That to me is far far worse. And Rees Mogg filibustered to stop a law to protect vulnerable women being passed. But, hey they did it using long words in a posh accent so that’s ok. And most people don’t know about it and, if they did have conveniently forgotten about it.

Of course MayBee70, because the Tories take from the poor and give to Tory voters.

Freya5 You said:
"he's had 40 years to do something, guess what he's done nothing but stir up hate."
I don't understand what you mean.
40 years to do what?
Could you give an example of his stirring up hate?

Starmer has at least admitted that the NHS needs more money, which is good, even if he talks about "reform" and "efficiencies" .

Grace Blakeley Tribune.
The IFS recently released the astonishing statistic that wages by 2026 would be over 40 percent lower than what they would have been had pre-crisis trends continued. In other words, living standards have essentially remained flat in the fifteen years since the financial crisis of 2008. The Resolution Foundation called this period of stagnation ‘completely unprecedented.’

In this context, it is no longer radical to argue that the UK economy requires deep, structural transformation. With the power to set taxes, levels of public spending, wages in the public sector, and regulation in the private sector, the British state is the only institution capable of enacting such a transformation. It follows that the British electorate is in favour of a radical shift in economic policy.

So why is the Labour Party refusing to provide such a shift?

Keir Starmer is undoubtedly a timid and conservative leader who shies away from the kind of radicalism championed by Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, making him a deeply inappropriate person to have at the helm at this time of unprecedented economic chaos.

I agree with what you say Glorianny

tribunemag.co.uk/2023/05/how-starmer-abandoned-left-wing-economics

Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell gave Labour the worse general election defeat since 1935

But the 2017 election result was one of the best. Then members of Corbyn staffers worked to stop a win along with mass media TV smears and Blair and Mandalson worked towards Jeremy Corbyn defeat. They could not let him win. Starmer is establishment the establishment is ok he won't rock the boat.

The 2017 election was lost, lost - not wanted - no thanks

The election was nearly won only by a couple thousand votes more, millions voted for him His paid staffers were devastated he nearly won as they had been working again a win. Anyway we are supposed to be talking about Starmer and all his great polices he won't tax the richest but will bring privatisation into the NHS