Pitch for leader ?

I understood that Siope. 😉

That post was not, as I realise it may appear, a challenge to volver, it was more by way of offering support.

ronib

Maybe include Greta Thunburg?

Who is not British, an engineer, a scientist or a university graduate.

Shall we have a chat about why this government refuses to properly fund higher education, thus making it essential that universities balance their books by taking foreign students’ extremely high fees?

Shall we also have a chat about the value that overseas students (full disclosure: I was one, in another country) bring to the educational experience - and thus to the earnings potential - of home students?

Maybe include Greta Thunburg?

As a home grown scientist married to a home grown engineer, I understand fine thanks.

Shall we have a chat about the international nature of scientific research?

Slight exaggeration Volver3 … I thought everyone went on and on ad nauseum about airplanes and climate change?

You have failed to understand the point about the need for more home grown scientists, technologists and engineers who push and find solutions to problems caused in part by the explosion in population.

I am constantly astonished at how literal some people are.

All those overseas students coming here will contribute to climate change. I mean, come on.

Glorianny accommodation is available to both home and overseas students on postgraduate courses. So local employment is not entirely reliant on overseas students but on students and they could be Uk based.
Airlines will be profiting from overseas students arguably but some environmental concerns remain over air travel.
What is interesting is that 40 percent almost of postgraduates are from overseas. So I think an expansion of home grown postgraduates in science, engineering and technology would do more to improve the Uk economy long term than the short term economic benefit of overseas postgraduates.
Just something to think about….

The universities, places of higher education, and the student accommodation in my city offer work opportunities which are valuable to all the city's population. Without the overseas students (who come and stay all year for the length of their degree) there would be a lot more unemployment here. These students are a valuable part of the local economy.

Talking about English universities not the Scottish.

So am I.

I have no idea whether it was Russell or not. Its was just an excellent university for technical subjects. In England.

Volver 3 - interesting - teaching second year Engineering did my son in but he also gained very valuable research skills which he is developing in his new role.

So I always thought that Russell/non Russell did have different admission standards? Also thought it might have had some social bias? Talking about English universities not the Scottish.

My DH was at a university lecturer about 30 years ago at a university renown for its scientific courses. This Russell/non-Russell stuff is hokum.

He lost heart when he had to teach Engineering first years remedial maths. British students.

I see your anecdote and counter it with mine. There's nothing new under the sun.

Growstuff Russell Group universities are better placed at attracting good quality students than non Russell. From my understanding of the situation, middle and lower ranked universities are under pressure to accept students for some courses who have little interest in the subject and poor ability.
My son resigned as a lecturer after 7 years and is now in industry where he is thriving. So there ends the anecdote.

ronib

Seems that the Office for Students has introduced/ or was introducing a system for fining universities with poor graduate pass rates and poor outcomes for finding employment within a given time frame - Guardian article last September . This probably explains the situation of passing inadequate work ? Seems strange times under this current administration?

There was talk about plans to do this, so that universities didn't take government money without delivering. It puts pressure on universities only to accept students who will stick with the course and achieve good outcomes. It also puts pressure on lecturers to work harder to support their students. It does not mean that standards have been lowered. Admittedly what my partner, a professor and admissions tutor at a Russell Group uni, says is also anecdotal.

Casdon

I’m going to talk sense. My dog would make a better prime minister than either of them. He’s kind, loyal, knows how to interact with people to best effect, has no racial or gender prejudices (although not keen on squirrels or birds), intuitive, and funny. He doesn’t open his mouth and spout ill informed rabble rousing rubbish. He’s also very handsome but that’s beside the point.

Well said Casdon.

Seems that the Office for Students has introduced/ or was introducing a system for fining universities with poor graduate pass rates and poor outcomes for finding employment within a given time frame - Guardian article last September . This probably explains the situation of passing inadequate work ? Seems strange times under this current administration?

Grow stuff … my mistake - all the university lecturers at one particular university were told this and one told me.

Just one? How many university lecturers do you think there are in the UK?

What experience and understanding do you have of university selection processes?

Grow stuff one university lecturer was told that he had to pass students who in normal times would fail. The problem is that some, not all, universities do not select the right students for their courses.

ronib

Casdon to be fair, I hadn’t thought about it before. The USA in 2020 had the highest number of international students and the Uk was placed second in the world.
I think some Uk universities have diluted grades and standards just to fill places at u/grad level. I don’t see that increased numbers of students leads to a better learning experience overall.
Can’t help but feel that higher education has become an industry in its own right?

How do you justify this?

The only thing that is correct about your post is that higher education has become an industry, encouraged by the government to earn foreign income.

They haven't "diluted" standards because their catchment is the world rather than the home market.

Casdon

ronib

Or another way of looking at it is - we’re not training up/educating our own children and instead places are going to people who will not play an active part in the Uk economy? And we will have a shortage of key workers?

That’s not true is it? There are sufficient university places for all UK students who achieve the right grades, and a surplus for students from overseas. If there were no overseas students courses would not run, and some universities would doubtless cease to exist.

Absolutely correct! Overseas students pay, on average, three times the amount home students pay. Universities are providing extra places for them, not "instead of".

Casdon to be fair, I hadn’t thought about it before. The USA in 2020 had the highest number of international students and the Uk was placed second in the world.
I think some Uk universities have diluted grades and standards just to fill places at u/grad level. I don’t see that increased numbers of students leads to a better learning experience overall.
Can’t help but feel that higher education has become an industry in its own right?

ronib

15.7 percent of all undergraduates and 39.1 percent postgraduates are international students at universities in England and Wales.
I don’t think we do have sufficient places for Uk students in the sought after courses - medicine, veterinary science, dentistry regardless of grades.
It’s a bit worrying that at postgraduate level almost 40 percent are international as this category will have the more sought after expertise.

That’s a low percentage for undergraduate courses ronib. Do you really think that 15% more places for British born students would make a difference? As international students pay higher fees, what impact would it have on university funding? Don’t you think students benefit from learning with others from different backgrounds? Do you know that a percentage of the 15% of international students come to the UK to study because they already have family connections?
For postgraduate courses there are usually more places available than students to do them, so that isn’t really an issue, although the universities benefit hugely from the fees. Do you not realise how many British students do postgraduate courses overseas, it’s not just one way traffic.
I really think you’re focusing on a non issue.

15.7 percent of all undergraduates and 39.1 percent postgraduates are international students at universities in England and Wales.
I don’t think we do have sufficient places for Uk students in the sought after courses - medicine, veterinary science, dentistry regardless of grades.
It’s a bit worrying that at postgraduate level almost 40 percent are international as this category will have the more sought after expertise.