When did UK governments lose their way?

Dinahmo

ronib

Dinahmo redundancy also happens in the Civil Service when a department or part of one is closed down.

Exactly - when they want to reduce the workforce.

Not sure that is necessarily true. My DD was involved in several Machinery of Government changes when Departments got closed, merged or renamed. Most people just moved to a similar job in a different department or the same job in a renamed department.

Mamie a minority then of civil servants have been given quite good redundancy payments in the past. I think there’s now a limit on the amount on the table.

ronib

Mamie a minority then of civil servants have been given quite good redundancy payments in the past. I think there’s now a limit on the amount on the table.

Oh yes, there were always people who opted for redundancy, but you would expect that wouldn't you? That has always been the trade-off in public service. Lower pay with better conditions of service.

ronib

Mamie a minority then of civil servants have been given quite good redundancy payments in the past. I think there’s now a limit on the amount on the table.

It’s changed now. Less favourable pensions, with a higher eligibility age, and lower redundancy lump sums make redundancy an unattractive option for public servants.

Casdon

ronib

Mamie a minority then of civil servants have been given quite good redundancy payments in the past. I think there’s now a limit on the amount on the table.

It’s changed now. Less favourable pensions, with a higher eligibility age, and lower redundancy lump sums make redundancy an unattractive option for public servants.

Yes it has, but you still hang on to the previous benefits you had accrued before the changes, don't you?

MaisieD Our Elective Di tatorship. Take a look at our supposed parliamentary democracy. See how power is funelled from election results declared, from parliament to Cabinet to PM, who own power is enhanced by the use of royal perogative and privy council. That power is left unchecked by the absence of a codified constitution, effective upper house or independent head of state. The centralisation of power for years prompted concerns of an elective dictatorship is what marks out the difference between a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy. That we are the latter and not the former is the source of a lot of weakness in the UK constitution.

I will be shouted down because of the Iraq war but I believe that Tony Blair gave us the best government in recent years. Hospital waiting times were massively reduced and new ones built although the contracts could have been better. He was a great speaker and highly intelligent. He settled Ireland into peace and overall this country had prestige which it sadly lacks now.

Mamie

Casdon

ronib

Mamie a minority then of civil servants have been given quite good redundancy payments in the past. I think there’s now a limit on the amount on the table.

It’s changed now. Less favourable pensions, with a higher eligibility age, and lower redundancy lump sums make redundancy an unattractive option for public servants.

Yes it has, but you still hang on to the previous benefits you had accrued before the changes, don't you?

Only if you were a defined age before the changes to schemes were made. The theory is that if you are below 50 (usually 50) before the changed scheme comes into being then you have enough working years left to make up the shortfall in your pension compared with the new scheme.
www.civilservicepensionscheme.org.uk/your-pension/2015-remedy/

Lovetopaint037

I will be shouted down because of the Iraq war but I believe that Tony Blair gave us the best government in recent years. Hospital waiting times were massively reduced and new ones built although the contracts could have been better. He was a great speaker and highly intelligent. He settled Ireland into peace and overall this country had prestige which it sadly lacks now.

You're quite right. People forget those achievements and just remember the Iraq War. We should remember both.

Lovetopaint037

I will be shouted down because of the Iraq war but I believe that Tony Blair gave us the best government in recent years. Hospital waiting times were massively reduced and new ones built although the contracts could have been better. He was a great speaker and highly intelligent. He settled Ireland into peace and overall this country had prestige which it sadly lacks now.

No shouting down from me. I agree. Yet again can I mention The Rest is Politics podcast in which Alastair Campbell explains what led to the Iraq decision. My daughter loved teaching at the time because she said Blair really did put money into education. And people seem to ignore the threat to peace in Ireland because of the Conservatives. It’s strange the way that the electorate choose to forget so many things but remember others. There is talk of Sunak promising more financial help with child care in a bid to win the next election and yet they promised that in a previous manifesto but didn’t implement it ( I considered voting for them because of it so it sticks in my mind).

My only concern with Blair and Iraq was that he was trying to achieve the same boost that winning the Falklands War did for MT.

Outside that, for me he wasn’t a good PM because he left us poorer than we had been at the end of the Thatcher era. And as for Gordon Brown. Those two heralded the start of a downward trend for us personally, but I’ll happily admit that nothing the Conservatives have done since has improved things for us.

Mollygo

My only concern with Blair and Iraq was that he was trying to achieve the same boost that winning the Falklands War did for MT.

Outside that, for me he wasn’t a good PM because he left us poorer than we had been at the end of the Thatcher era. And as for Gordon Brown. Those two heralded the start of a downward trend for us personally, but I’ll happily admit that nothing the Conservatives have done since has improved things for us.

Have you listened to the podcast? If so why on earth do you think that Blair used the Iraq war to get votes?

MayBee70 I did, but it didn’t alter my opinion that he saw it as an opportunity to boost his image.
I thought that he made mistakes in his planning for the war in Iraq and as I recollect, he admitted them and apologised for those errors later.

I think Iraq will haunt him forever and I’m pretty sure he regrets it now. But I still believe that, at the time he thought he was doing it for the right reasons. Whereas with Thatcher, I found an old newspaper article saying that, prior to the Falklands was Argentina were planning to invade and I feel that she could have prevented to war but didn’t.

prior to the Falklands was Argentina were planning to invade
I don’t understand this part of your post.

Every time I think of the Falklands War. I think of Simon Weston.
I think, as you probably do too, that war is appalling.
I have no idea whether MT could have prevented it or how she could have prevented it.
I think the only thing that made it acceptable to the media was that we won.

I used to put old newspaper down on the utility room floor because I had an old incontinent dog. After the war I put down a newspaper ( it must have been the Observer because that’s the only paper I bought back then) and saw an article which said that Argentina were threatening to reclaim the Falklands. It hadn’t registered with me at the time. So the invasion wouldn’t have been a complete shock to the government at the time.

Dinahmo

Lovetopaint037

I will be shouted down because of the Iraq war but I believe that Tony Blair gave us the best government in recent years. Hospital waiting times were massively reduced and new ones built although the contracts could have been better. He was a great speaker and highly intelligent. He settled Ireland into peace and overall this country had prestige which it sadly lacks now.

You're quite right. People forget those achievements and just remember the Iraq War. We should remember both.

Ah yes. Working in a hospital during this time people who had waited the 4 hours just got moved into another waiting area. So not quite as good as it appeared. Also under Blair hospitals actually closed down. Maternity hospital in a north west resort closed. Children's A&E was shifted to a town in another county. Not all great.

And let us not forget that Tony Blair embraced private health firms and welcomed them into the NHS

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

Louella12

Dinahmo

Lovetopaint037

I will be shouted down because of the Iraq war but I believe that Tony Blair gave us the best government in recent years. Hospital waiting times were massively reduced and new ones built although the contracts could have been better. He was a great speaker and highly intelligent. He settled Ireland into peace and overall this country had prestige which it sadly lacks now.

You're quite right. People forget those achievements and just remember the Iraq War. We should remember both.

Ah yes. Working in a hospital during this time people who had waited the 4 hours just got moved into another waiting area. So not quite as good as it appeared. Also under Blair hospitals actually closed down. Maternity hospital in a north west resort closed. Children's A&E was shifted to a town in another county. Not all great.

And let us not forget that Tony Blair embraced private health firms and welcomed them into the NHS

www.theguardian.com/society/2006/feb/16/health.politics

I’m ex NHS too, and I’m not clear what point you’re making Louella. There is clearly documented information available demonstrating the reduction in waiting lists under Blair, and improvements in the quality of NHS care. I can post the detail if you want it?
Service changes in the name of efficiency and patient safety have been part of the NHS since it started, and services were consolidated during Blair’s tenure for safety reasons - many small A&E units, and maternity units were closed because there were not enough numbers going through them to enable experienced staffing. It saved lives, although it wasn’t popular because people didn’t understand why it was necessary.
Are you saying that the Tories didn’t privatise the NHS when in power, and that healthcare has improved since 2010?

MayBee70

I used to put old newspaper down on the utility room floor because I had an old incontinent dog. After the war I put down a newspaper ( it must have been the Observer because that’s the only paper I bought back then) and saw an article which said that Argentina were threatening to reclaim the Falklands. It hadn’t registered with me at the time. So the invasion wouldn’t have been a complete shock to the government at the time.

The Falkland Islands have never actually belonged to the country of Argentina. They were claimed by a Spanish colony at one time, a colony that later on became Argentina.

Ah yes. Working in a hospital during this time people who had waited the 4 hours just got moved into another waiting area. So not quite as good as it appeared. Also under Blair hospitals actually closed down. Maternity hospital in a north west resort closed. Children's A&E was shifted to a town in another county. Not all great

I have just two words, Louella:
Stafford Hospital

Callistemon21

MayBee70

I used to put old newspaper down on the utility room floor because I had an old incontinent dog. After the war I put down a newspaper ( it must have been the Observer because that’s the only paper I bought back then) and saw an article which said that Argentina were threatening to reclaim the Falklands. It hadn’t registered with me at the time. So the invasion wouldn’t have been a complete shock to the government at the time.

The Falkland Islands have never actually belonged to the country of Argentina. They were claimed by a Spanish colony at one time, a colony that later on became Argentina.

I can’t remember the article because it was obviously a long time ago so it must have said they were going to invade the Falklands. Either way the government at the time must have known that something was going to happen.

Argentina regularly ratttled sabres over the Falklands and each time diplomats dealt with it. Thatcher was losing popularity which is why she went to war. And then lied about the timing of the sinking of the Belgrano.

Were you there?

I had a look for information about the Falklands war.
According to Lord Carrington's papers (released under the 30 yrs rule) the government was. 'surprised' by the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands because they'd not taken much interest in what was going on there. Negotiations over the contested territory had lapsed. The Argentinian president had been losing popularity and saw trying to take the islands as a way of regaining support. The British had withdrawn a naval vessel from the area so he took advantage of the lack of naval protection.

The sinking of the Belgrano was outrageous.

In 1977 PM Jim Callaghan quietly and efficiently dealt with an Argentinian threat to invade the Falklands.

"Operation Journeyman was a Royal Navy operation in which a naval taskforce was secretly sent to the Falkland Islands in November 1977 to prevent an Argentine invasion.

The operation was ordered by James Callaghan after a party from the Argentine Air Force landed on Thule and constructed a base with barracks and a concrete helicopter landing pad. They set up a weather station, a radio station, and a flagpole from which the Argentine flag flew.[1][2] This prompted fears of an Argentine invasion of the Falklands. The United Kingdom's Foreign Office states that prompt action against the Argentines prevented a more serious attack.[3] The force, planned under heavy security, was commanded by Captain Hugh Balfour, the commanding officer of the frigate HMS Phoebe, which was accompanied by the nuclear submarine HMS Dreadnought, the frigate HMS Alacrity, and two auxiliaries, RFA Resurgent and RFA Olwen in support.[4] The Argentines rapidly became aware of the taskforce's presence, but their forces remained on Thule and Callaghan decided against the use of force to evict them.

The 1977 rules of engagement were: "Commanding officers and aircraft captains are to respond to any aggression with tactful firmness and are to exhibit a determination to meet any escalation, though not to exceed that already carried out by the enemy."

"All use of force must be governed by the principle of using only the minimum force necessary to achieve the aim." Such force must be used only until it was evident "that the immediate aim is being achieved, and must in no way be retaliatory".

The submarine commander was told: "If you are attacked with [anti-submarine] weapons by [Argentine] forces, you are to surface or withdraw at high speed submerged, whichever will be of least risk to life."

They also set up a 50-mile (80 km) security zone and any ships entering would be told that they must identify themselves and state their plans.[1] Classified documents relating to Operation Journeyman were released in 2005."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation Journeyman

A few years later Margaret Thatcher insisted on cutting naval defense on the Falklands, despite strong warnings of the risk.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/dec/30/thatcher-warned-defence-cuts-falklands