Criminal or a Health Matter?

I understand that, GSM - but my point is that, while those factors would certainly be taken into consideration, the unborn child would not be treated as a separate person in the eyes of the law.

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

Germanshepherdsmum

I have downloaded the full judgment. Here it is:
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/R-v.-Foster-sentencing-remarks-12.6.23.pdf

Thank you for posting this link

Germanshepherdsmum

And if I may say so, Saetana, posting at 14.48 that you were just about to read the judgment and then posting your typed-up thoughts on it at 15.00 is not indicative of reading it carefully and considering its contents. I’m a retired solicitor used to reading judgments and it certainly took me considerably longer than you to read and digest it.

I am a fast reader, I read a lot and frequently, I read the report and managed to digest it in a very short time - lets call it a talent of mine

Sorry, you don’t speed read legal judgments and comprehend the nuances of the judgment. I can speed read too, but there are times when it’s not appropriate. Your comment after reading the judgment showed that. Oh, and before you say it in your defence, I can type quickly too.

44 years ago I lost a much wanted and already loved baby at 28 weeks, I had to go through 25 hours of induced Labour and when he was delivered, he was perfectly formed, a perfect little person.

To abort a baby at such a late stage is tantamount to murder, and the punishment should fit the crime.

pascal30

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

i think you are confusing this defendant, ms foster, with another case that the judge refers to, that of ms catt.
the facts you refer to relate to ms catt, not the defendant in this case.

Germanshepherdsmum

Sorry, you don’t speed read legal judgments and comprehend the nuances of the judgment. I can speed read too, but there are times when it’s not appropriate. Your comment after reading the judgment showed that. Oh, and before you say it in your defence, I can type quickly too.

i agree GSM.

I can't help but think that there must have been desperate circunstances in her life to lie about getting mefication.
Sending her to jail isn't going to make the problem go away....she needed help & compassion

Do you not understand that the judge had no alternative Shazmo? If you read the judgment you will I hope understand.

GSM I think you are showing extreme patience.

JenniferEccles

She killed her baby. I’m wholly in favour of her being severely punished.

I agree

welbeck

pascal30

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

i think you are confusing this defendant, ms foster, with another case that the judge refers to, that of ms catt.
the facts you refer to relate to ms catt, not the defendant in this case.

Oh yes you are correct .. apologies

ronib

GSM I think you are showing extreme patience.

Thanks ronib. It’s not easy!

Even in the Pandemic, it was possible to get things from the Pharmacy including the morning after pill. Of course it is impossible to know what the circumstances of conception were. It could have been an accident where the father was happy for them to proceed but when they broke up, was less supportive.
However, on balance, I think the mother deserved a prison sentence but I do feel so badly for her children. It always seems that it is the children who come off worse and in this case none more so than the unborn child.
If drugs are going to be prescribed by telephone, I think it is really important that those needing the medication realise there are consequences to their dishonesty because it won't be long before anti-abortionists are seeking to have the service closed down.
Within all this, there is the terrible effect that all of this has had on this mother. Maybe prison isn't the best place for her (presuming that she isn't just being devious to get a lesser sentence) but somewhere she could get therapy along with a sound education on how to make sensible decisions so she doesn't get herself into this sort of mess. There was mention of "emotionally unstable personality traits" and although this would be quite difficult to change, it can be worked with CBT upon to help a person become more stable. I think this would be much preferable to prison and could even help her living children.

pascal30

She has two children, has had a previous abortion and has had one baby adopted.. I wonder why she wasn't prepared to have this one adopted as well.. I don't agree with abortion if a baby is viable...

That isn't true that was the case which the judge used to reach his sentencing decision

I've read the judgement. I notice he seems to say she is emotionally unstable and depressed as a result of the abortion. As there was no medical assessment before the abortion I don't see how he can decide when or how her depression began. One thing is certain she is now in a pitiful state emotionally and mentally.
He also seems to blame her for her not guilty plea although there is a statement that her counsel wanted the charge changed.
There are few parallels between the case he used to reach judgement apart from the fact that both involved late abortions. One would seem to be a woman who used abortion and adoption to limit the children she cared for. who refused to cooperate and reveal the body, and the other a woman so devastated by what she has done that she has even named the baby.
It's a bit like sentencing a first time offender to prison because a dedicated burglar has been.

He does not say that she is emotionally unstable as a result of the abortion. His only reference to the Catt case is in terms of sentence. Catt received five years due to aggravating factors not present in the Foster case. Read the judgement again as it is, not how you want it to be.

GSM Just want to thank you so much for your patience and for taking the time and trouble to explain things to us non-legal folks - I too “speed read and speed type” that doesn’t given me some hidden talent to untangle and comprehend legal documents ! I think some people are being a little foolish in their assertions 😊

Germanshepherdsmum

Thanks for linking to the judgement GSM.

It's such an emotive issue, that it does well to understand all the circumstances surrounding the case - and to read about them in unemotional and rational legal terminology.

I think what needs to be avoided is extreme reactions to the sentencing from either the pro or anti abortion camps. It doesn't help anyone.

Sometimes - if you read comments in the tabloid media - it appears people don't understand that judges don't make the Law, they interpret it and work within its framework. When sentences appear unduly lenient or unduly harsh you read and hear comments such as "these judges are out of touch" or "they haven't got a clue"... well actually, they're not out of touch at all and have more of a "clue" than the average layman will ever have.

I do question the 'usefulness' of this woman's sentence and I think her punishment and rehabilitation might have been better achieved in other ways - but this is a matter for the law-makers, not the judge.

The judge refers to emotionally unstable personality traits. That’s different than saying she was depressed or emotionally distressed by her actions. It goes some way to explaining the behaviour leading to her obtaining and taking the drugs that killed her unborn child.
The personality traits described are enduring. I understand the reasons for the prison sentence. Mental health services in the community and in prisons are of course, inadequate and over stretched. That isn’t a criticism of the practitioners. Our local prison has the services of qualified forensic psychologists

Thanks Cossy, that’s kind. I just wanted to end the speculation and the excuses for this woman, though I haven’t been entirely successful there!

GSM you’ll never end the speculation, but thank you for your links and detailed explanations of the legal aspects through this thread.

It isn't giving excuses to question the judgement of someone. Judges have quite often misapplied the law and particularly when dealing with women.
What he actually said about her mental health I accept, however, that there is evidence of emotionally unstable personality traits. More significantly, I accept that you feel very deep and genuine remorse for your actions. You are wracked by guilt and have suffered depression
As I said he had absolutely no evidence or information about when the depression began. If it was a contributing factor.
As for the concept that she might receive better mental health care in prison. The 2021-22 Parliamentary report stated
Provision was not adequate to meet the high levels of need in some women’s prisons. Inspections identified various reasons[…] including inadequate service specification, chronic recruitment and retention issues, inadequate staff supervision, difficulties accessing patients due to the restrictions of the prison regime and a lack of suitable therapeutic spaces in which to offer services
So good luck with that.

Glorianny, with services in the desperate state they are, where else would you suggest she should be after committing such a heinous crime? A psychiatric hospital would be the only alternative and would still involve separation from her children as she would a need long, intensive course of treatment. Perhaps this would have been a better fit for her but we have to trust the judge on this occasion. She is guilty of the crime and must face the consequences.