Criminal or a Health Matter?

Cossy

Glorianny

I think in some of your responses you’re totally missing the point, this woman probably was disturbed and upset, but it is totally incomparable to those poor women who experience miscarriages, stillbirth or are barren and unable to conceive. She knowingly had unprotected sex and then made the choice to lie and have a very late termination, I have no doubt that this experience was awful for her, but she chose this action, as a forty year old mother - her actions were deplorable

How do you know she "knowingly" had unprotected sex? She/they might have been using contraception, but accidents can still happen. Way too many assumptions going on in this thread.

Mallin

Unless I have the same information regarding this, as the judge did…..I am unwilling to comment.

Thanks for posting the Judgement germanshepherdsmum. I posted earlier that I didn’t know the detail but believed a noncustodial sentence more appropriate. Having read the judgement, I understand why the judge gave a custodial sentence.
I was interested in his reference to emotionally unstable personality traits. Those few words go a long way in explaining her behaviour

Germanshepherdsmum

Have you read the judgement I posted? No, thought not.

I am just about to read it now, I posted initially without having read the entire thread.

Mallin, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to quote your post. Hot clumsy fingers here

Heck Grannyben, that's a bit harsh. Take another look at your words and apply them to yourself and your children! Dear me.

Thanks Iam. It explains a lot, including why a custodial sentence was imposed, and I hoped it would end the unfounded speculation and excuses for what happened.

I see nothing in the sentencing report to make me change my previous comments - this crime should not have attracted a custodial sentence (or at least it should have been suspended). It is also possible that the woman may have been poorly advised from a legal standpoint, a good lawyer would have advised her to plead guilty at the Magistrates Court stage. We do not know how she was advised regarding this - or if she chose herself to plead not guilty to child destruction. Its clear from the sentencing report that she was in turmoil, trying to decide what to do about the pregnancy. There is also zero mention of what her home circumstances were like - was she scared of her partner? Still too many unanswered questions here.

Having read the judgement, I do understand why, in strict legal terms, the judge handed down the sentence he did. However, I personally still don't think a custodial sentence was appropriate in this case.

She has murdered her baby, and deserves prison. The same as if it had been murdered in its cot. It’s all about what she wanted. So selfish. Don’t seat about mental health, it doesn’t excuse everything

Saetana

I see nothing in the sentencing report to make me change my previous comments - this crime should not have attracted a custodial sentence (or at least it should have been suspended). It is also possible that the woman may have been poorly advised from a legal standpoint, a good lawyer would have advised her to plead guilty at the Magistrates Court stage. We do not know how she was advised regarding this - or if she chose herself to plead not guilty to child destruction. Its clear from the sentencing report that she was in turmoil, trying to decide what to do about the pregnancy. There is also zero mention of what her home circumstances were like - was she scared of her partner? Still too many unanswered questions here.

If you have read judgement properly you will know why the judge had no option but to impose an immediate custodial sentence and how he arrived at the appropriate length of that sentence.
He will have had no unanswered questions. He had the benefit of the prosecution’s evidence, such mitigation as the defence could put forward and pre-sentence reports. If he had any further questions of prosecution or defence or the authors of the reports he would have asked them.

I’ve thought about it as now have more information. Why are they saying abortion at 32 weeks, it’s murder, unless you think a baby has no rights. If she had died in a road accident medics would have tried to save the child. So the child was not wanted from day I. I wonder how the other children were being looked after. She had sex with two men during Covid, who had her children ? I think a thorough assessment has to be made on her parenting skills. Poor baby. Lots of people would have given everything to adopt the child and given it a good life she owed her baby that. Also why are abortion pills available on line? Abortion shouldn’t be a method of birth control. If it’s in the first few weeks of pregnancy that’s entirely different to a full formed healthy child.

And if I may say so, Saetana, posting at 14.48 that you were just about to read the judgment and then posting your typed-up thoughts on it at 15.00 is not indicative of reading it carefully and considering its contents. I’m a retired solicitor used to reading judgments and it certainly took me considerably longer than you to read and digest it.

This woman must have been in a terrible state and certainly desperate. I do not understand how putting her in prison and depriving her other children of their mother helps the situation. This sentence should be overturned.

Germanshepherdsmum

Read the judgement! She was not mentally ill; a woman with postnatal depression is.

I really don’t know why I bothered to post the judgement. People continue to speculate without reading it.

I've read it. He describes the woman as emotionally unstable and subject to depression which he blames on her remorse about the abortion. How he knew when her depression began he doesn't say. It is quite possible that she was severely depressed when she took the tablets and her subsequent depression is just the continuation of that. As there was no mental health assessment until after the act it is difficult to know her state of mind at the time. This doesn't seem to have bothered the judge.
He says there are no sentencing guidelines, uses another case which has some similarities but is certainly not exactly the same. He blames her for the not guilty plea but notes that her counsel wanted the charge to be changed. Which means it was possibly more of a legal conflict than her decision,
In short he seems to blame her for everything. Although reading through the judgement it is obvious her actions were not carefully thought out and she was and still is in a state of distress.

Thanks for posting the full judgement Germansheperdsmum. Having read that in its entirety, I'm even more convinced that the right sentence was given. The judge clearly articulated his reasoning, having taken the full facts into consideration, and I feel the sentence was appropriate and fair.

In short he seems to blame her for everything

Who else could be blamed?

Glorianny, the judge knew far more about the circumstances than you do. Professional pre-sentence reports were provided. Those would have gone into her circumstances before as well as after the abortion. The judge would have had all that information before him. How you can possibly suggest that he wasn’t bothered is beyond my understanding.

The Catt case to which he referred was not exactly the same, there were particular aggravating factors not present in this case, hence his decision not to impose the five year term which Catt received.

And there is no ‘legal conflict’ in the change of charge. You really do let your imagination run away with you in attempt to defend this woman, don’t you?

Indeed Cheers. But I expect Glorianny will dream up something.

So sad, not appropriate to imprison the poor woman, her children that will suffer and it's hardly a deterrent. She must have been desperate, needs support not punishment.

Thank you for posting the judgement GSM. Judges apply the law, they don't make it.

That’s right Smileless. And they can’t just hand down whatever sentence they feel like on the day. If there is an appeal against sentence it’s possible it may be cut or even suspended and that would be a reference point for a judge dealing with a similar case in future. The appeal judgement would also provide reasons for upholding or changing the sentence which would provide further clarity for some posters unhappy with the outcome. On a personal level I find the crime abhorrent and nothing I have read has changed my mind or lead me to have any sympathy for the perpetrator.

I think it's perfectly possible to have read the judgement and understand the reasoning behind the sentence - and at the same time, to disagree with that sentence on a personal level.

Jess20

So sad, not appropriate to imprison the poor woman, her children that will suffer and it's hardly a deterrent. She must have been desperate, needs support not punishment.

Yes, and yes, Blondiescot.

How about this then? If the woman in question had herself been murdered, the perpetrator would not be charged with two counts of murder, as her unborn child would not be regarded as a person in the eyes of the law.

In some countries it would be treated as a double murder. In the UK murder is subject to a mandatory life sentence. Aggravating factors such as the woman having been pregnant will be considered when deciding on the minimum sentence the murderer must serve. The fact that the child’s life has also been ended will not be ignored. The death of the unborn child will not be disregarded, nor should it be whatever the stage of pregnancy. The law values life.