It has taken a little over 10 years and Tory cuts to push the NHS from the top to second from the bottom of risk nation health care.

Calendargirl

I’m amazed so many students want to go to medical school.

Junior doctors striking because their pay is only £14 per hour or similar. And subsequently leaving the profession in droves.

Does that not put these prospective doctors off? Why do they think it will be any different when they qualify?

Too many are trained and qualify in the uk then take off elsewhere without having to repay the cost of their training. They should either stay for an equal amount of time it took to train or pay back the cost.

There was always huge amounts of waste in the NHS when I worked in it with absolutely no comeback at all. The opinion of the public facing staff is of no interest to management who see no point in rocking the boat that overpays them.

The Consultants who could insist on change’s won’t because they make a lot of money from people forced to go private.

Since paying GPs a much higher salary they have attracted too many who want high salaries but as little access to patients as possible. As for my surgery putting out a message that the reception staff have undertaken a two week course and must now be regarded as safe to make decisions regarding who needs to see a doctor. If I had been unlucky enough to get through to the surgery after two hours of trying, I would be dead. Thankfully the person on 111 sent for an ambulance immediately.

Growstuff,

Specific instance YES!!!! PFI has cost the NHS dearly. Go back to the brave new world of Tony Blair whose bright idea was to build hospitals by getting very large and ricih contractors to bukud so many new hospitals. Great idea but they not only cost huge amounts of money but entailed the hospitals getting ALL maintenance carried out by the same contractors who charge ridiculous amounts of money for that service. Also I clearly recall a series where a top economics brain of a man had a series looking at waste in the NHS. Operating theatres left inoperable because the top admin brass in hospitals could not organise a pee up in a brewery. Both political parties have thrown money at the health service with poor outcomes. If It is all so wonderful why is it that no other country in the world has copied the NHS model. Look at the EU ( so loved by many on GRANSNET) and find one country that has the same model health service as us? In Eire you pay to see your GP, in France you pay personally but claim back, Maybe other grans who live in France and Spain and other places can explain. I live in a country were we pay to see the doctor and for tests, Not a large amount but ALL pay. I do know that the UK citizens pay for the NHS happily but it is extremely poorly managed. It took me three emails last week to make the Diabetic Eye Test Centre at the Royal Free understand that I would not be attending my appt because I am not at home and I have had laser surgery on both eyes so I have no problem. All well meaning but I go through this charade often. Junior doctors and the BMA should be ashamed. The JD does not earn much for a couple of years but after that they are reasonably well paid. I have lots of experience with Consultants and none of them are poor. Sure, the Conservatives have not done well with the NHS. We all know that soon Labour will be in power, but WWM2 you blame only the Tories and never the long years under Blair. You would think only the Tories were responsible for everything wrong in UK but some of us can see blame in a wider context, I do wish you were an MP because your zeal for putting things right is commendable!

Ask Sherlock for the answers to your question DrWatson.

She777

I’ve worked in London and Manchester at hospitals.
Lots of people are admitted straight from airports, the ferry etc. They sign forms to say they will pay and then when they are discharged they just disappear. It was very common for major city hospitals.

Ferries to Manchester?

I’ve worked in London and Manchester at hospitals.
Lots of people are admitted straight from airports, the ferry etc. They sign forms to say they will pay and then when they are discharged they just disappear. It was very common for major city hospitals.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Germanshepherdsmum

I’m afraid whatever any of us says based on personal experience is dismissed as ‘anecdotal’. Pointing out that the Kings Fund report refers to bureaucracy is ‘rubbishing’ it.

It suits the most vociferous left-wing posters to claim that all the problems of the NHS result from the actions of the current government.

Lived experience is important but it can only refects only a proportion of the overall picture. I wonder if you have ever done any research on something like the running of an extremely large and nationwide organisation. If you had you would be aware that the Organisational Behavior people usually do interview staff or use questionnaires to find out and report on their experiences.

Nannashirlz

For any company that wastes money it’s down to the management got nothing to do with government it’s the overpaid fat cats. Just look at the water companies etc all these big companies know how to waste money because it’s not their money so they don’t care

But it's the government which sets the NHS' targets and the budget.

How many "fat cats" are there in the NHS as a percentage of the workforce?

pen50

The NHS is reasonably well funded, by international standards, for a (legal) population of around 68 million. Unfortunately, it is having to service an actual population of around 85 million, and most of the 17 million difference are not paying a penny in tax or NI towards it.

Really??

Really!

Can you provide some concrete evidence of this? Like, for example, data?

pen50

The NHS is reasonably well funded, by international standards, for a (legal) population of around 68 million. Unfortunately, it is having to service an actual population of around 85 million, and most of the 17 million difference are not paying a penny in tax or NI towards it.

So who are the additional 17 million?

Grantanow

We never talk about a 'private sector mentality' but it could well include the kind of managerial incompetence that leads to environmental disasters (like sewage in rivers, the consequences of mining), the wrongful prosecution of subpostmasters for fictitious frauds, audit failings and tolerating a climate of harassment leading to public criticism.

Well said, Grantnow

The NHS is reasonably well funded, by international standards, for a (legal) population of around 68 million. Unfortunately, it is having to service an actual population of around 85 million, and most of the 17 million difference are not paying a penny in tax or NI towards it.

My knowledge is anecdotal (as I find it hard to trust any news reports and do not trust at all anything politicians say.) All the people I have counselled who work within the NHS (and they are many) report that there are too may managers and they are intent on empire-building, or - if they came from within the admin section - that the bureaucracy is strangling and the culture full of bullying and backsliding. I doubt if there is any one answer but I do believe if we had a government devoted to the NHS instead of one that wants to let it die, we would have more chance of getting somewhere

Dinahmo summed up the service here in France well.
I'm 69 and in good health so have not had much experience
of the medical services. I pay 50€ per month to a Mutuelle
and have used it well to pay for Dental treatment with a
Dental Surgeon in a beautifull new centre with available
appointments .
The British public are ill informed on paying for health. Those
who have a low income receive free basic health , its paid for by the Government. It is nothing like that dreadfull system in the
USA. As a result of paying in to the system we all benefit from
a very good service. (however, I don't live in a big city which
always has its own problems)
Government

Until we are prepared to accept that we all need to pay more towards our NHS so that the staff, particularly front line, are adequately paid, there will be little improvement. Currently, staff are leaving the service in crowds and recruitment is difficult. This results in a lot of problems that people experience when needing the service.

I don’t doubt that savings are available in administration, but the system itself needs a shakeup to achieve this. I think it unlikely that even that would be enough to finance the NHS properly.

Whitewavemark2

Germanshepherdsmum

And covid - don’t forget that.

As far as I am aware ALL rich nations grappled with covid.

This

Germanshepherdsmum

And covid - don’t forget that.

Covid was a worldwide pandemic so that shouldn’t have made any difference to our position in the league table.

grantanow that is so right.

For any company that wastes money it’s down to the management got nothing to do with government it’s the overpaid fat cats. Just look at the water companies etc all these big companies know how to waste money because it’s not their money so they don’t care

We never talk about a 'private sector mentality' but it could well include the kind of managerial incompetence that leads to environmental disasters (like sewage in rivers, the consequences of mining), the wrongful prosecution of subpostmasters for fictitious frauds, audit failings and tolerating a climate of harassment leading to public criticism.

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

No offence intended, but that is rubbish! The majority of the Managers in the NHS are also working Clinicians who manage their clinical team and department budget. It’s a tiny majority who are general Managers. Not only is there no waste, but there is too little of everything. I retired from the NHS in 2014 and since one year after the Tories came back into Goverment and slashed the budget on the Trust by an unmerciful amount, we were lucky to have enough basic supplies and often didn’t. When there were full day training events, not only could they no longer supply tea and coffee, let alone lunch, they wouldn’t even supply water. They said they could not justify using public money to have staff take the water to the room!

MaizieD

^These are people from all over the world travelling all over the world and paying for their health care.^

I think that the inference made by the posters who have told us about 'health tourism' is that all those foreigners have come to the UK for completely free treatment.
And we should be Very Cross about it...

I would indeed be very cross if a) we had actual data and b) I had any hope the government - since 2010, people - could run a hop related party let alone a functioning administrative system.

Actually, with all the practice, they have probably got hop related parties down to a fine art, while running the country simply deteriorates.

Analysis published by the Health Foundation's REAL Centre has found that over the decade before the pandemic, the UK spent around a fifth (18%) less on average than the EU14 on day-to-day health care costs (per person living in the country).

The UK’s total health care budget was £187bn per year, on average, between 2010 and 2019 (unadjusted for inflation overtime). But if UK spending per person had matched the average across the EU14 over the pre-pandemic decade, then total UK spending per year would have been £227bn – a difference of £40bn more on average every year.

The analysis also looked at comparisons with the UK’s closest European neighbours. In every year between 2010 and 2019 the UK would have had to spend an additional £73bn more to match Germany’s spending per person (39% extra). When compared to France the UK would have to spend an additional £40bn extra every year (21% extra). Just four countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece) in the EU14 spent less per person than the UK over the same period.

The charity also looked at capital health spending on vital buildings, technology and equipment comparative to European neighbours. Comparing capital spending with the EU14 countries for which data are available it found that between 2010 and 2019, cumulative UK investment in capital health infrastructure would have needed an additional £33bn to match the total EU average invested over that period (around 55% higher than actual investment).

These are people from all over the world travelling all over the world and paying for their health care.

I think that the inference made by the posters who have told us about 'health tourism' is that all those foreigners have come to the UK for completely free treatment.
And we should be Very Cross about it...

The French govt pays around 70% of our health costs

As far as I can see, Dinahmo, (but I haven't found a decent chart to post) that 70% that the French govt pays is far more than the UK govt spends for what is supposed to be a service provided at no extra cost to the user. So your 70&, plus the contribution via the mutuelle makes the UK's look very poor...

Of course, in international comparisons of healthcare spending the US always comes out top, but would we really like a healthcare system like theirs? Which is what our government would like to see...