It has taken a little over 10 years and Tory cuts to push the NHS from the top to second from the bottom of risk nation health care.

The headline should read “rich nation” not “risk nation”

And covid - don’t forget that.

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

You’d be wrong. Lack of investment over a sustained period has everything to do with it.

I could weep, (as well as being afraid for myself and loved oneself and general concern for all).

I recall so strongly the pride my mum and dad felt in telling me as a child all about how people had fought and won the battle for free healthcare, they had taken part in that political fight.

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

The Kings Fund say that the NHS has a very efficient administration system.

Germanshepherdsmum

And covid - don’t forget that.

As far as I am aware ALL rich nations grappled with covid.

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

Do you have specific examples of poor management on a large scale, which are costing the NHS? (Apart from the internal market with all the associated commissioning charges.)

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

In what way?

Casdon

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

You’d be wrong. Lack of investment over a sustained period has everything to do with it.

You could be right.

But how much more can we afford to spend on the NHS.
The figures spent are absolutely staggering.

People complained about the cost of the Coronation. It was the cost of running the NHS for 5 hours.

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

Wrong -

look at the Kings Fund report.

fancythat

Casdon

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

You’d be wrong. Lack of investment over a sustained period has everything to do with it.

You could be right.

But how much more can we afford to spend on the NHS.
The figures spent are absolutely staggering.

People complained about the cost of the Coronation. It was the cost of running the NHS for 5 hours.

Many other developed countries spend more per head than the UK. The answer to your question depends how much you value health for all.

Whitewavemark2

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

The Kings Fund say that the NHS has a very efficient administration system.

Managers are the lazy thinker’s scapegoat in any public sector organisation, people don’t bother their heads with the reality these managers live within. No money, impossible targets, deteriorating estate and equipment, staff dissatisfaction and public approbation.

Whitewavemark2

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

Wrong -

look at the Kings Fund report.

The KF criticise bureaucracy within the NHS, i.e. layers of management.

fancythat

Casdon

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

You’d be wrong. Lack of investment over a sustained period has everything to do with it.

You could be right.

But how much more can we afford to spend on the NHS.
The figures spent are absolutely staggering.

People complained about the cost of the Coronation. It was the cost of running the NHS for 5 hours.

But the problem is with the cuts that the Tories have piled onto the nhs year on year on year since they took office.

They are intent on privatisation, but even they probably underestimated the loyalty people have towards the NHS and it’s resilience against being pushed to breaking point.

Germanshepherdsmum

Whitewavemark2

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

Wrong -

look at the Kings Fund report.

The KF criticise bureaucracy within the NHS, i.e. layers of management.

And go on to say that, that is not the issue.

The issue is the year on year spending cuts by the Tories.

Nothing can get away from that.

fancythat

Casdon

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

You’d be wrong. Lack of investment over a sustained period has everything to do with it.

You could be right.

But how much more can we afford to spend on the NHS.
The figures spent are absolutely staggering.

People complained about the cost of the Coronation. It was the cost of running the NHS for 5 hours.

This is worth a read fancythat.
www.nhsconfed.org/articles/is-nhs-awash-with-cash
It comes down to either reducing what the NHS does, or paying more so that it can do what it was doing a decade or more ago properly, and accounting for the increased population and life expectancy, plus clinical advances.

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

In what way?

Being accountable to real people with high expectations rather than other departments with low expectations. Getting through the work no matter how long that took (for no extra payment). Not letting it build up to unmanageable levels (which I never did but colleagues thought entirely acceptable). Far greater demands in every way than I ever experienced in the public sector.

Whitewavemark2

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

The Kings Fund say that the NHS has a very efficient administration system.

With the strangling of investment, I wonder if we would have any NHS care at all if we didn't have efficient management.

According to the OECD and King's Fund report, administrative spending is lower than average in the UK health system.

Germanshepherdsmum

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree eazybee. The sort of managers we have in the NHS are good at wasting money. Since my days in local government I have referred to what I witnessed as a public sector mentality’ based on the way people I worked with, at all levels, functioned. Entering the private sector was like a baptism of fire.

In what way?

Being accountable to real people with high expectations rather than other departments with low expectations. Getting through the work no matter how long that took (for no extra payment). Not letting it build up to unmanageable levels (which I never did but colleagues thought entirely acceptable). Far greater demands in every way than I ever experienced in the public sector.

How could the NHS prevent work from building up to unmanageable levels, if people keep getting ill?

Who do you think NHS staff are accountable to, if not real people?

Whitewavemark2

eazybee

I would say poor management has a great deal to do with it.

The Kings Fund say that the NHS has a very efficient administration system.

I'm surprised to hear that.

Not in our experience in England or Wales.
It's the sloppy administration which costs the NHS money and upsets patients and medical staff from so many accounts we hear.

That, of course, is purely anecdotal but from a fairly wide range of sources in different regions and from medical staff themselves.

Callistemon I have never experienced so much of the NHS as I have over the last year. In my anecdotal experience, it's been extremely effective and cost-efficient - as it was when I had a heart attack in 2017. Even my GP surgery seems to have got its act together and I've had three appointments over the last four weeks and another one this week.