Into the abyss - NHS Consultants have voted for strike action

Employers decide what they pay an employee, whichever sector they are in. In the private sector that’s market forces, which is no myth. It’s the value of the employee to the employer’s business which decides their remuneration. What anyone else thinks about how much the employee is paid is irrelevant.

Germanshepherdsmum

Are you suggesting that the taxpayer should be paying doctors the same as bankers and City lawyers, whose remuneration is decided by market forces?

Been thinking about this one, are we talking about the bankers who manipulated libor illegally to make more money for the banks, the ones who got their banks heavily involved in subprime mortgages (which they actually didn't understand) and nearly brought our banking system down, perhaps the ones involved in hedge funds that make money when our businesses collapse or the pound falls, or could you be talking about the ones who fund private equity, so that they can asset strip (Debts in Thames Water had gone from £3.2bn to £10.5bn by the time Macquarie had sold its stake, whilst paying out £2.8bn in dividends to shareholders during their time in control.) Actually it's we, the tax payers who have paid heavily for all these people with their sticky fingers in dubious pies and we are still paying with effects it has had on our public services. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, it is not what is intended but the idea that people get paid what they are worth according to market forces is a complete myth. How can you put a value on improving the value of someone's life by giving them a hip replacement, or putting someone back together after a road accident, or caring for an old person with dementia? We can work out how much a medical procedure costs but we can never know how much the value is to the patient.

Casdon I would like to understand the funding model and so far don’t have a hope - I am not the only one not being completely transparent! Seems pie in the sky territory.

ronib

Casdon the Bma is promoting part time working for consultants. Don’t forget 7 weeks holiday pay plus pension benefits. You are getting bogged down in details - however and I was rather hoping that MaizieD could provide an overview of how it was all going to work out.

You do make me smile ronib. It doesn’t make any difference if a consultant works less hours than full time because he or she won’t be paid for it! All contracts have annual leave, pension benefits etc. built in, what’s your point there - do you want consultants to work 365 days a year or what?
It’s not me getting bogged down in details here, it’s you - you keep twisting what you’re asking for if you don’t get the information you think you need.

I wanted to know from Maizie, who knows far more than me about these things, if paying consultants £200k and giving in to the junior doctors, could be achieved without raising taxes in due course , remembering her mantra that taxation doesn’t fund spending (though my belief is that the spending wouldn’t occur if the taxation wasn’t coming along).

The BMA says the senior doctors can do private work on their 2 strike days in July.
Soooooo, that’s alright then

ronib

Casdon the Bma is promoting part time working for consultants. Don’t forget 7 weeks holiday pay plus pension benefits. You are getting bogged down in details - however and I was rather hoping that MaizieD could provide an overview of how it was all going to work out.

How? Does she have a crystal ball?

Casdon the Bma is promoting part time working for consultants. Don’t forget 7 weeks holiday pay plus pension benefits. You are getting bogged down in details - however and I was rather hoping that MaizieD could provide an overview of how it was all going to work out.

Casdon

karmalady

our taxes paid for their consultant training. They owe us

And they have more than paid it back by the time they reach consultant status, because it takes an average of 15 years.

Whilst they are training, they are also training the doctors who are junior to them, this is in addition to doing the actual specialist work. They could argue that we owe them but fortunately, they don't!

karmalady

our taxes paid for their consultant training. They owe us

And they have more than paid it back by the time they reach consultant status, because it takes an average of 15 years.

ronib

Casdon I was assuming employer’s contributions taking it to £200k

That’s the first time you’ve mentioned that. Employers contribution is just under 15%, so would add £18,000 to the new proposed salary. But it’s not £200k for for 25 hours work, it’s £192k for 37.5 hours (equivalent in sessions) work, which is less than two thirds of what you quoted, where did you get 25 hours from?

our taxes paid for their consultant training. They owe us

Casdon I was assuming employer’s contributions taking it to £200k

ronib

Casdon I am not claiming to be able to pay for the whole Nhs budget in the grand scheme of MaizieD’s thinking. I can’t even begin to research this topic as I wouldn’t know where to begin remembering that taxation doesn’t fund spending. Please some concrete examples would help.

Starting Point, this took me about 30 seconds to google.
Top of the scale full time consultant pay is just under £120,00 (2022 rate, pay award obviously not yet agreed for 2023).

If they get 35% it will go up to £174,000. Just to confirm that’s not £200,000 for 25 hours work?

Tell me, Maizie, if we were to pay consultants £200k and give junior doctors a substantial rise, say the 35% they are demanding, would taxation not have to be increased in due course as a result?

Casdon I am not claiming to be able to pay for the whole Nhs budget in the grand scheme of MaizieD’s thinking. I can’t even begin to research this topic as I wouldn’t know where to begin remembering that taxation doesn’t fund spending. Please some concrete examples would help.

karmalady

Shocking and very greedy behaviour by the consultants

I agree, they had a massive pay increase from the Blair governement, as did GP's I believe. Now they want to hold us to ransom? I wonder what proportion are also taking on private work.
I had my cateracts done on the NHS at a private hospital. The reason I chose to have it done there was because the wait was months shorter. Yet the doctors who were doing the work were the same people at both private hospitals as at the local main NHS hospital. I understand that they have contracts with private hospitals and that the doctors earn extra for the work they do for the NHS there, even though it is during the normal working week. Why?

MaizieD

ronib

No Casdon - the figures that show the viability of paying consultants the going rate? £200k per annum is it? For a 25 hour NHS week?

Sorry, didn't twig.

Paying consultants the 'going rate' is perfectly viable. What makes you think it might not be?

So is paying the other NHS doctors and the nurses.

Neither did I, it was ambiguous. If you spent some time doing your own research ronib, you’d know that consultants are paid on a sessional basis, they only get paid by the NHS for the hours they work for the NHS.

MaizieD I assumed you had worked out the running costs of the Nhs plus how it was going to be paid? I do find you very confusing sometimes…,

ronib

No Casdon - the figures that show the viability of paying consultants the going rate? £200k per annum is it? For a 25 hour NHS week?

Sorry, didn't twig.

Paying consultants the 'going rate' is perfectly viable. What makes you think it might not be?

So is paying the other NHS doctors and the nurses.

ronib

Have you got any figures to support your claims MaizieD? It is a fascinating area ….

Which claim?

No Casdon - the figures that show the viability of paying consultants the going rate? £200k per annum is it? For a 25 hour NHS week?

Taxation may not fund spending, but it surely follows on does it not?
I believe many doctors leave the UK for a better quality of life, not necessarily for money. Giving the doctors a vast pay increase will not cure the ills of the NHS.

Yes, here you are ronib.
www.gmc-uk.org/-/media/documents/migration-decisions-research-report_pdf-94525731.pdf

Have you got any figures to support your claims MaizieD? It is a fascinating area ….