Riots in France

I sure don’t see where maddyone is coming from on this issue.Blaming everyone bar the police.
There are many parents and yeah! Even single Mothers who bring up their children really well and they still do wrong things. In this case in France we don’t know what this boy did wrong except driving when he was only 17, maybe not even having a driving licence or insurance and so on.Whatever the minor crime ,being shot in the head and killed is just a disgusting act.
There will always be those who use a demo for their own ends and enjoy burning and looting but there is a very real reason for French people to show how they feel about police brutality.

pascal30

Oreo

NanaDana

Regardless of the fact that this 17 year old youth was illegally driving a car which wasn't his, I've seen the video of the incident, and it's quite clear that he had initially stopped, 2 policeman approached the stationary car on the driver's side, one stood immediately adjacent to the driver's window, and as the youth drove slowly off, he shot him though that window at point blank range. I saw zero evidence of the youth driving the car at anyone. So yes, he was breaking the law, but most certainly didn't deserve to be summarily executed, which is what happened. It doesn't take much to spark rioting by disaffected immigrant youths in France, and as in the past, this often becomes an excuse for looting. I feel sorry for the residents of the area, and it seems crazy that the rioters are often destroying the areas where they themselves live. However, the bottom line is that what we've seen here is the horrific, unjustifiable termination of a young life... a punishment totally out of proportion to his misdemeanours.

This!

I completely agree, a disgusting execution.. why couldn't the policeman just shoot at a tyre...

Most definitely this. If they shot at everyone who drove off untoward because they might be a terrorist...yes, shoot out the tyres.

Would it have happened in a "nice white suburb" if a young man tried to drive away? I doubt it.

I watch quite a few "police Interceptor" programmes on 5 Action and they give chase in this situation.

Anyone who thinks that rioting and looting would never happen here have short memories.

Yes I knew what you meant Joseann that was a crossed post. It is like the vaccines, lots of people saying they would never have them, then in the end they just did.
The problems of maginalised communities are obviously much greater and more serious, but I do think "protest then do as you are told" can be a factor in French life.

BlueBelle

Maddy I totally disagree with your very single minded and simplistic beliefs that because the boy was doing something wrong he had been badly brought up
Very unrealistic beliefs

You might have been very lucky and never had your children put a foot wrong but it doesn’t matter how well you bring a child up they can get caught up in mischief

I have a friend who brought her two girls up impeccably a church goer a local counciller however one child now a middle aged lady has been in trouble all her life ruined by drink and drugs I could repeat this story with many different upstanding people You can bring children up to the letter but outside influences always come into play
Your views read like a fairy story not in the least realistic or normal

And your post is unfortunately rude.
There is no need for rudeness because I don’t agree with your view.
The mother brought the boy up. Who is responsible? It’s been said on here that she was a single parent. Unfortunately single parenthood can result in delinquent behaviour, particularly in teenage boys, note I said can, not does. It’s been noted here in the UK and France is not different in that respect. The parents hold some responsibility when they fail to bring up their children to behave properly. You may not like that assessment, but it does not make it untrue. The fact remains that if the boy had not been behaving illegally, he would have still been alive!

It looks as if Marseilles was the worst hit last night.
I think that reflects what we were saying yesterday about geographical ghettos in France. Somewhere I read that one third of Marseille's residents are of North African descent, and they mostly all live together in a poor area north of the city. Integration is impossible.

I mean it works for them visually in voicing and more how they feel.

Rioting and protest as a legacy of the revolution is still deeply important to France, but I am not sure it solves much. The pension reforms have all gone through now.

Allsorts

France, that’s how they sort almost everything, rioting.

I agree, and ironically it kind of works for them in its own way.

The hoses were used in some places in the pension protests earlier in the year, but I haven't seen them this time. The army were out last night.

France, that’s how they sort almost everything, rioting.

I know it's simplistic but would the deployment of water cannons not make a difference. At least the fires would be put out and thoroughly drenched people might stop throwing things and causing so much injury to Police and damage to property ie people's homes and businesses

Yes Macron's message did include asking parents to keep their children indoors at night and rightly so when you see how young the rioters and looters are. I wouldn't want to judge the mother of the dead boy though.
It looks as if Marseilles was the worst hit last night.

I don't think the interview with the dead boy's mum was shown on UKtv Mamie, but we do have reports of it and translated quotes. I found the video in French, it was sad, and I agree with the lawyer that French law and the judicial system favours and protects police officers, especially in cases like this one.

We had clips of Macron's speech on UKtv which concentrated on his words about parents being responsible for their offsprings' behaviour, so I can see where Maddyone is coming from here.

Maddy I totally disagree with your very single minded and simplistic beliefs that because the boy was doing something wrong he had been badly brought up
Very unrealistic beliefs

You might have been very lucky and never had your children put a foot wrong but it doesn’t matter how well you bring a child up they can get caught up in mischief

I have a friend who brought her two girls up impeccably a church goer a local counciller however one child now a middle aged lady has been in trouble all her life ruined by drink and drugs I could repeat this story with many different upstanding people You can bring children up to the letter but outside influences always come into play
Your views read like a fairy story not in the least realistic or normal

Paris has a long history of migrant groups from other parts of France creating communities, often associated with trades like chimney sweeps or coal merchants. I recommend Graham Robb's The Discovery of France, which is a fascinating read.
In that sense the banlieues are nothing new.
Was the interview with the dead boy's mother shown on UK TV? I thought she was dignified, especially when she talked about not blaming the police, just one policeman.

Joseann

^Integration is a complex matter - not just in France - and probably deserves a separate thread.^
Definitely, Dickens, so many issues to consider for integration to work successfully.

Those who migrate for economic reasons tend to be ghettoised in areas where accommodation is cheaper - along with the impoverished natives of the country.
I'm not totally convinced by that statement where France is concerned. I think we would need to analyse the make-up of individual banlieues in Paris. I've read several articles written by immigrants in Paris who say the ghettos offer refuge from "French" spaces. By that they mean there are only Blacks and Arabs where they live which gives them a sense of “being at home” in the space of thebanlieue. They see those "French", usually white, within the city, as more hostile.

Anyway, this is digressing somewhat.

I think we would need to analyse the make-up of individual banlieues in Paris.

Yes - which is why it would have to be a separate thread, it would be quite an elaborate study.

A number of people here are saying that "we don't know if this youth was a terrorist or not". True. Neither did the Police, but that didn't stop one of them from summarily executing him "just in case". Is anyone really suggesting that this was a reasonable and justifiable response to what appears to have been a straightforward TWOC offense? The mind boggles...

Horrific. I think I’d probably be with the rioters. No apologies either, is this any different to the behaviour of the treatment of the black man who was battered in America by the police. Perhaps the gun is comfortable in hands of those who have power who should know what to do with it.

and so its different for Dordogneshire then? Saturday morning market , you would think you were in England.

Integration is a complex matter - not just in France - and probably deserves a separate thread.
Definitely, Dickens, so many issues to consider for integration to work successfully.

Those who migrate for economic reasons tend to be ghettoised in areas where accommodation is cheaper - along with the impoverished natives of the country.
I'm not totally convinced by that statement where France is concerned. I think we would need to analyse the make-up of individual banlieues in Paris. I've read several articles written by immigrants in Paris who say the ghettos offer refuge from "French" spaces. By that they mean there are only Blacks and Arabs where they live which gives them a sense of “being at home” in the space of thebanlieue. They see those "French", usually white, within the city, as more hostile.

Anyway, this is digressing somewhat.

Oreo

NanaDana

Regardless of the fact that this 17 year old youth was illegally driving a car which wasn't his, I've seen the video of the incident, and it's quite clear that he had initially stopped, 2 policeman approached the stationary car on the driver's side, one stood immediately adjacent to the driver's window, and as the youth drove slowly off, he shot him though that window at point blank range. I saw zero evidence of the youth driving the car at anyone. So yes, he was breaking the law, but most certainly didn't deserve to be summarily executed, which is what happened. It doesn't take much to spark rioting by disaffected immigrant youths in France, and as in the past, this often becomes an excuse for looting. I feel sorry for the residents of the area, and it seems crazy that the rioters are often destroying the areas where they themselves live. However, the bottom line is that what we've seen here is the horrific, unjustifiable termination of a young life... a punishment totally out of proportion to his misdemeanours.

This!

I completely agree, a disgusting execution.. why couldn't the policeman just shoot at a tyre...

Of course you did Divkens and that shows you were not only good and concerned parents, but you acted on your instincts and were able to prevent a worse situation from developing. Of course it’s more difficult for a single mother, perhaps especially from a different culture that diminishes women, but it does come down to parenting in the end. Whether over entitled middle class indulged children or children who were inadequately parented by single parents or parents who don’t know how to cope with their children, it always comes down to parenting. It’s not a popular opinion, but I’m absolutely sure that this the basic problem.

Joseann

I don't know about his mother's parenting skills, but I think I read he had never known his father, which sadly must have had some bearing. He was on the wrong side of the law, and not just on this occasion, believe.
I'm no expert, but I think it goes a lot deeper than that. France has always had problems integrating Algerians, Arabs, and Black people because it wants to do it on its own terms. France tends to marginalise and abandon them in segregated places, where discontent and distrust breeds. It's no wonder they find it impossible to integrate into regular French society, and all respect for authority, particularly for the police, is non existent.

France has always had problems integrating Algerians, Arabs, and Black people because it wants to do it on its own terms.

Integration is a complex matter - not just in France - and probably deserves a separate thread.

France is proud - and protective - of its identity I think. How do you go about integrating people from different cultures, especially if some of the convictions of those cultures are diametrically opposed to your own? Look at the problems created by the 'burkini' ban.

I don't think France marginalises or abandons immigrants any more than other countries. Those who migrate for economic reasons tend to be ghettoised in areas where accommodation is cheaper - along with the impoverished natives of the country. Maybe it's poverty and lack of opportunities that also contribute to the unrest. Maybe the native French who lead frugal and penurious lives also feel alienated from the culture of their own nation?

As for the question of whether the mother brought up her child to respect the law... who knows? I think the assumption that if she had, he wouldn't have gone astray is questionable. There is absolutely no guarantee that your child, once in adulthood, will adhere to the principles he / she was raised under. At all levels of society, the offspring of 'good' parents do sometimes go rogue. My late ex and I had to secretly follow my son on a couple of occasions to discover that he was mixing with the 'wrong' crowd. If we hadn't done that, we'd never have known that he was sometimes breaking the law. It was only petty law-breaking - but who knows where it might have led had we not sleuthed and discovered what he was up to. We were condemned for it by some of our friends, but my son, now in his 50s with sons of his own, is glad that we did what we did because, looking back, he says he realises how impressionable he was as an 17 / 18 year old.

I don't know about his mother's parenting skills, but I think I read he had never known his father, which sadly must have had some bearing. He was on the wrong side of the law, and not just on this occasion, believe.
I'm no expert, but I think it goes a lot deeper than that. France has always had problems integrating Algerians, Arabs, and Black people because it wants to do it on its own terms. France tends to marginalise and abandon them in segregated places, where discontent and distrust breeds. It's no wonder they find it impossible to integrate into regular French society, and all respect for authority, particularly for the police, is non existent.