Riots in France

Callistemon21

^I read that, because the car was automatic, when the driver took his foot off the pedal the car shot forward and the policeman thought he was driving away^

I don't understand that, an automatic hardly moves forward, it might only creep very gently, unless the accelerator is pressed.

We drive automatics, both slowly crawl forward, I suppose engineered to not begin slipping backwards (say) at a stop in traffic. Gearing mechanism being different with no clutch to keep pressed.

Callistemon21

M0nica
But why did the policeman feel this was a situation where he needed to push a gun through the window and use it if the car moved.

Perhaps he was remembering Nice.

I imagine the quick, life saving decisions police make are difficult - thus the need for perfect training of imperfect persons.

nightowl

It is only recently that there was a tragic incident in Nottingham which was the subject of much discussion on here. A vehicle was also used as a weapon in that case and it was initially thought that it could be a terrorist attack. The police managed to arrest the alleged perpetrator quickly and without further loss of life.

Our police are far from perfect but I believe they are second to none in handling violent and dangerous offenders and deserve our support for being prepared to risk their own lives in the process. I believe the French police officer’s action was vastly disproportionate and do not believe this young man posed any immediate danger to anyone. I am prepared to be corrected if there is evidence to the contrary (and I don’t mean evidence gleaned from news reports and videos online, but from a proper investigation).

There was no question of the vehicle being used as a weapon. He was underage in a rental car with foreign plates. He was stopped by police but refused to produce papers so drove off. No reason to kill him. He should just have been stopped. The policeman says legitimate defence - whose he kidding?

Jaxjacky

This situation looks appalling, Macron hasn’t helped by nipping off to see Elton John.

Riots usually stem from ethnic profiling within the French police force. If you are North African, or in fact anything other than white, you chances of being stopped and searched are 15 times more frequent.

In this murder, the police initially stated that the car was trying to run people down. The murderer said it was legitimate defence. He had struck the youth over the head 3 times before shooting him as he tried to drive off.

There was then one one more lie ' Police initially reported that he was shot after driving his car at police, but this was contradicted by a video that rapidly went viral across social media and was later authenticated by AFP. The footage shows the two policemen standing by the stationary car, with one pointing a weapon at the driver. A voice is heard saying, "You are going to get a bullet in the head." Then he was goaded by the other policeman who said 'just shoot him'.

These riots have been sparked by this incident but they are also a cry from the poor minority for some social justice.

Thank you for those graphs Foxygloves, I didn't have time to study them earlier.
I think this unfortunate episode has highlighted the tensionsthat exist between two rival camps in France. There's the law and order White French brigade, and then those who just see racism in the pattern of killings by the police. Like you, I do not pretend to understand how it works, but I do know that when buying properties in France our notaire, (who was employed by the state), twice pointedly commented, " We don't mind you English buying our houses, it's the Africans we don't want."

This one.

The policeman says - legitimate defence, who’s he kidding?

You were there then? And saw the whole thing?

Mmmmmm!

I also read that last year, 13 people in France were shot dead in their vehicles by police officers, which is a record in the country. I assume these incidents weren't filmed at the time and put on social media because we never heard about them. Why is this one in particular different?
They are all sad deaths.

maddyone

^The policeman says - legitimate defence, who’s he kidding?^

You were there then? And saw the whole thing?

Mmmmmm!

Maybe the 17 year old drew a gun.... we don't know.

halfpint1

All over France people are peacefully showing their support for the authorities by massing Infront of their Mairie

And if I were French I would be doing that too.
We weren’t there, so we don’t know the absolute details, but policemen don’t normally go about their duties thinking ‘I’m going to kill a person tonight.’ They are highly trained and used to these situations. This boy was acting in a suspicious way. That must be what the policeman thought. This boy was a criminal, already known to the police. This boy was driving illegally without insurance. Good job he didn’t knock you down and leave you with catastrophic injuries because you’d be getting no compensation to help live the rest of your life with disabilities left from his actions. The French are raising money so their policeman can have a good defence team. The French are supporting their policeman because he made a split second decision that has had profound consequences.

Yes Joseann they are all sad deaths, and this one was so unnecessary. If the boy had not been driving illegally this wouldn’t have happened. Also if the French didn’t arm their police it might not have happened, but we do have armed police units in the UK, and if there was a lot of crime that night the armed police might have been directed to that area. There are a lot of if, if, ifs aren’t there?

This lad was 17. He had not been in court formally, just indulged in driving without tax and insurance. I am not defending him. But the response should have been proportionate.

He was just a silly kid being too clever by half. Typical 17 year old. Behaviour not to be recommended, but how would we have felt if it had happened in this country and a 17 year old black boy, with a reputastion for minor misbehaviour were to be shot by the police during a stop and search.

Driving without license, tax, and insurance is very serious. It can have extremely serious consequences for both the driver ( as it did in this case but I’m not recommending that) but in my opinion the serious consequences for completely innocent people can be horrendous. We do see it in this country sometimes, not a policeman shooting the driver obviously, but uninsured drivers who have no license so never officially taught to drive, hitting other cars or pedestrians with catastrophic results and strangely the culprit, the driver seems to often walk away unharmed.
I can’t understand the attitude on here from some that this is not a serious crime, but a bit of a prank, not very serious. It is serious and all too often has extremely serious repercussions for completely innocent people.

M0nica

This lad was 17. He had not been in court formally, just indulged in driving without tax and insurance. I am not defending him. But the response should have been proportionate.

He was just a silly kid being too clever by half. Typical 17 year old. Behaviour not to be recommended, but how would we have felt if it had happened in this country and a 17 year old black boy, with a reputastion for minor misbehaviour were to be shot by the police during a stop and search.

Or a 17 yr old white boy, or girl, this death should have happened regardless of race

However dangerous driving without tax, licence or insurance, is, it is still not a crime that justifies execution.

maddyone

Yes Joseann they are all sad deaths, and this one was so unnecessary. If the boy had not been driving illegally this wouldn’t have happened. Also if the French didn’t arm their police it might not have happened, but we do have armed police units in the UK, and if there was a lot of crime that night the armed police might have been directed to that area. There are a lot of if, if, ifs aren’t there?

Yes an armed police unit might attend a traffic incident but they are not going to draw weapons in that situation, our rules are much stricter. Even so during firearms operations innocent shootings do happen

But M0nica, if the armed police officer deemed that - after refusing to obey - the driver was about to cause harm or injure others, then by law that officer is allowed to shoot.

maddyone

Yes Joseann they are all sad deaths, and this one was so unnecessary. If the boy had not been driving illegally this wouldn’t have happened. Also if the French didn’t arm their police it might not have happened, but we do have armed police units in the UK, and if there was a lot of crime that night the armed police might have been directed to that area. There are a lot of if, if, ifs aren’t there?

Seems the armed French Police may be having difficulties discerning force needed in a traffic incident. German police are well trained, disciplined, carry guns, I wonder their number of such shootings?

Germans are known to do things quite correctly since WW2, I believe. Not just loose rules, followed however one chooses.

One single fatal shooting in Germany in the past 10 years Norah. Double figures in France in the last year alone. As you say, is it the training?

Joseann Not in the UK they can't - or only in the most extreme circumstances. They certainly cannot stick guns in cars during routine searches and shoot the driver if they try to drive off.

I’m very proud of our unarmed police force. I know that not every police officer is untarnished, we all know of the dreadful murder of Sarah Everard, but thankfully police murders or killings during the enforcement of the law are rare. However we do have armed police units, my nephew was in such a unit whilst he was a serving officer.
Other countries choose differently. It’s up to them. They are aware that incidents such as this occur occasionally and they still choose to arm their police. That is their choice.

Joseann

One single fatal shooting in Germany in the past 10 years Norah. Double figures in France in the last year alone. As you say, is it the training?

The Police National or the Gendarmes?

.... nationale
It is good that things have now quietened down and also to see the solidarity of citizens with Maires and Mairies. I think it is perhaps hard from a British point of view to see their importance in French life, symbolically and practically.

An example of the French police heavy handed behaviour. The even happened in 1961 but it is indicative of the force's mindset.

"The Paris massacre of 1961 was the mass killing of Algerians who were living in Paris by the French National Police. It occurred on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the National Police attacked a demonstration by 30,000 pro-National Liberation Front (FLN) Algerians. After 37 years of denial and censorship of the press, in 1998 the government finally acknowledged 40 deaths, while some historians estimate that between 200 and 300 Algerians died.[3][4] Death was due to heavy-handed beating by the police, as well as mass drownings, as police officers threw demonstrators into the river Seine.

The massacre was intentional, as substantiated by historian Jean-Luc Einaudi, who won a trial against Papon in 1999. (Papon had been convicted in 1998 of crimes against humanity for his role under the Vichy collaborationist regime during World War II.) Official documentation and eyewitness accounts within the Paris police department suggest that Papon directed the massacre himself. Police records show that he called for officers in one station to be "subversive" in quelling the demonstrations, and assured them protection from prosecution if they participated.[4][5]

Forty years after the massacre, on 17 October 2001, Bertrand Delanoë, the Socialist Mayor of Paris, put up a plaque in remembrance of the massacre on Pont Saint-Michel.[6][7] How many demonstrators were killed is still unclear. In the absence of official estimates, the plaque commemorating the massacre reads, "In memory of the many Algerians killed during the bloody repression of the peaceful demonstration of 17 October 1961". On 18 February 2007 (the day after Papon's death) calls were made for a Paris Métro station under construction in Gennevilliers to be named "17 Octobre 1961" in commemoration of the massacre.[8][9] "

During the German occupation of France policing was carried out by collaborators. After the war, a police was needed and it was thought that the existing police would form the post war force. Maurice Papon was an example of this.

Is your last paragraph referring just to the Milice Dinahmo?