Anyone else waiting with anticipation to see what's in the Govt's plan for the NHS?

Aveline

Och stop moaning and nitpicking and who said what and when. For whatever reason, this new plan is going to start. Thank goodness something practical is finally being done rather than being spouted on about.

Exactly. It’s the best news for ages.

Germanshepherdsmum

The government are funding the putting of the plan into operation.
It’s Labour’s plan for stopping the boats I want to know about.

If you listen to last nights question time Rosina spelled out Labours plan regarding the boats. However, I find it very worrying that the electorate have been gaslighted into thinking that the boats are the main problem facing this country and the reason why not a single thing seems to be functioning properly. Oh and the new deal with Australia means that they are trying to persuade as many of our doctors and nurses to work in Australia for a few years as possible. But, not to worry: the government say that it is unlikely that more that 5% will take up their offer.

Casdon

Aveline

Och stop moaning and nitpicking and who said what and when. For whatever reason, this new plan is going to start. Thank goodness something practical is finally being done rather than being spouted on about.

Exactly. It’s the best news for ages.

But they’re only undoing the problem that they created in the first place? Why should they be applauded for doing that?

To be fair it was discussed on TRIP’s and they said the allocation of doctors training places in universities is very complex and not just down to the government. Having said that I still think the government should look ahead and try to influence such decisions but they aren’t, as I assumed, totally to blame.

Casdon

foxie48

Casdon

I’m glad this has been announced and that work is starting on what will be a minimum ten year route to put the NHS staffing back on its feet. It’s what our next government would have done anyway, and it will be introduced a year earlier than it would have been which is all to the good.
I’m still waiting for the pay, estates and equipment elements to be announced.

Training more doctors starts in 2025, the govt could start now by removing the cap on training so the new medical schools could start training home students rather than overseas ones, all that is needed is the £.

That’s true.

Someone on here has already explained why. Five new medical schools have already opened, Sunderland, Chelmsford, Lancashire, Lincoln in 2018, Hull, York, and Exeter expanded. Things are happening and have been. Doesn't help that Brunel in London only taking overseas students. New one due to open in Cumbria this year.

I think they mentioned about places being taken by foreign students was down to funding ( I need to listen to it again but even Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart said they need to look into it more thoroughly because it’s so complicated).

MayBee70 Brunel is for overseas students only excluding Uk and EU at this moment.

Brunel medical

ronib

Brunel medical

Brunel university is not for overseas students, the medical school was not set up for overseas students but they are unable to take UK students is because the govt will not fund medical students them. I really don't know how i can make this more simple for people to understand but I will try.
The govt has a limit on the number of places it will fund for training UK doctors in UK medical schools. Despite the support of the British Medical Association and several universities getting GMC approval for new medical schools, eg Brunel, Chester, Worcester etc and several medical schools expanding their intakes, this cap prevents them from taking UK students. The UK could have been training more doctors for years but the Conservative govt has refused to increase the cap. Consultants did oppose an increase in training more doctors but that was back in the very early 2000's. The only reason we have not been training more doctors is the refusal of this govt to lift the cap on training places. They have now agreed to lift the cap but not until 2025 which is after the next GE!

In 2008 the Bma voted against new medical hospitals and new training places for Uk students. Not the government voting. The Bma.

foxie48

ronib

Brunel medical

Brunel university is not for overseas students, the medical school was not set up for overseas students but they are unable to take UK students is because the govt will not fund medical students them. I really don't know how i can make this more simple for people to understand but I will try.
The govt has a limit on the number of places it will fund for training UK doctors in UK medical schools. Despite the support of the British Medical Association and several universities getting GMC approval for new medical schools, eg Brunel, Chester, Worcester etc and several medical schools expanding their intakes, this cap prevents them from taking UK students. The UK could have been training more doctors for years but the Conservative govt has refused to increase the cap. Consultants did oppose an increase in training more doctors but that was back in the very early 2000's. The only reason we have not been training more doctors is the refusal of this govt to lift the cap on training places. They have now agreed to lift the cap but not until 2025 which is after the next GE!

Well explained foxie48, that’s exactly my understanding too. People walk round with their fingers in their ears.

Fingers typing on keyboards would be more helpful - 2008 Bma decision etc

Plans afoot for dentists to be made to work in the NHS for 2 or 3 years before going in to private dentistry. We heavily subsidise their training so I think it’s only fair that they should do so. It is ridiculous that they were ever allowed to go straight into private work but that is what the Labour Government allowed them to do.

Primrose53

Plans afoot for dentists to be made to work in the NHS for 2 or 3 years before going in to private dentistry. We heavily subsidise their training so I think it’s only fair that they should do so. It is ridiculous that they were ever allowed to go straight into private work but that is what the Labour Government allowed them to do.

They didn’t leave though when there was a Labour Government, because they were paid adequately to do NHS work. The reason they are going private now is because they can no longer afford to run an NHS practice. Don’t get me started on how badly dentists have been treated, it’s a national disgrace that the nation’s health will suffer for decades to come.

Casdon some argue that the Labour government’s reforms started the rot …

Blair’s PFI initiative has bled the NHS dry and continues to do so. I remember when some developers and contractors I acted for were desperate to get on that bandwagon.

Further thoughts on the plan. Reducing the training for medics to 4 years and offering apprenticeships might be a way of increasing the number of doctors but they will be less well trained (that's only a problem for patients in the NHS though!) My daughter did a four year grad entry medicine, after gaining in a 1st class degree at a Russell group uni in biological science. Not boasting here btw just confirming that she had an excellent background for a medical career. She had no problems in her first year or since but many, without her background did struggle with the volume and depth of knowledge that they needed to absorb. Her assessment of her training was it was tough because of the huge amount of "stuff" you needed to know, understand and also be able to recall in a stressful situation because so much of the assessment is clinical based. However, she said those who graduated with her definitely benefited from their maturity when they did the two foundation years, which were very challenging at times and she knows hospital staff preferred the grad entry students because of this. Obviously by shortening the training those F1/F2 doctors will be even younger than those who currently go to uni after "A" levels and do a 5 or 6 year(if they intercalcate) course and there will be many more trainees on the wards. FWIW daughter also sang the praises of experienced nurses, who really helped to support young doctors (they are also leaving in droves!) However, it would mean that our medical training courses would no longer be on a par with those countries that are keen to recruit British trained doctors, so that door would close. I think it's excellent to train nurses to take on more complex roles with enhanced pay to match, doctors do a huge amount of paperwork, anything that reduces that would greatly increase the time spent face to face with actual patients but I can't help feeling that I'd prefer my doctor to be well trained rather than quickly trained and I'm not sure the two are compatible.

For a different view you might like to listen to this podcast. www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2f_BqbtXBg

I'm a great fan of the conversation style of podcasts. It gives you an insight to the background thinking going on.

Germanshepherdsmum

Blair’s PFI initiative has bled the NHS dry and continues to do so. I remember when some developers and contractors I acted for were desperate to get on that bandwagon.

PFIs were introduced under John Major. Blair carried them on, then Cameron carried them on.

ronib

Casdon some argue that the Labour government’s reforms started the rot …

Some do, when they are clutching at straws. I didn’t agree with everything Blair did by any means, but I do know that the Tories have had 13 years to overturn anything Labour did for the NHS that wasn’t right, and instead they have let it slide into chaos.

There was quite a surge under Blair, which is what I was involved in.

Germanshepherdsmum

There was quite a surge under Blair, which is what I was involved in.

Blair carried on a Tory initiative. It was in hindsight a bad decision. However, knowing it was a bad decision, it also carried on after Cameron came into office.

Germanshepherdsmum

Blair’s PFI initiative has bled the NHS dry and continues to do so. I remember when some developers and contractors I acted for were desperate to get on that bandwagon.

Do you think this would be of any interest to the working population? They generally want to know what is happening going forward and now. Most haven't the time to live in the past.

Did anyone spot any short term goals in the Conservative plan? It seemed to be all aimed at the future but I may have missed something.

These plans all look a bit pointless if the government doesn't intend to address pay and conditions as well. I can't see potential NHS staff being attracted to the professions under current pay and conditions.