Gender neutral toilets in todays news!

Are you 'hounding' me or 'demanding' answers to every single part of your posts, Glorianny?

I can't answer questions about something you have invented (ie the 'something nasty' you allege to have happened), without diverting the thread away from what we do know, which is that the teacher tried to suppress the girls' opinions, and that she was rude and threatening to them.

But one recording one girl clearly says “I didn’t say anything about her” and the teacher accepts this. The girl then says “It’s an opinion” which indicates she is discussing a concept, not a person.

Now another pupil may have been upset that somebody held a different opinion and would not agree with her.

At that point a teacher should ask both sides to consider their opinions. Not use her position of authority to bully, which is what she did. Repeatedly, attacking in different ways.

There is no justification for her. The big question is where does the ethos of the school stand on this. Does it condone or even encourage this type of teacher behaviour.

Smileless2012

Regardless of what may have happened or not, the teacher's responses were unacceptable and unprofessional. To accuse her students of craftily leading her down the garden path into a discussion is wasn't necessary to have is absurd. If she's so easily led then she's in the wrong professsion.

You say Glorianny that the girls can believe what they like well clearly not with this particular teacher.

She probably is Smileless2012 she probably won't stay. The average time most spend in the profession is about 5 years now. A third leave after 3 years. I wonder why?

Doodledog

I agree, Musicgirl. None of this is compatible with the feminism that many of us believe in.

Glorianny, you are using DARVO tactics to discredit the girls.

Deny that the teacher is wrong (or weaken the idea by saying she 'doesn't handle it well', meaning that she didn't instigate the issue).
Attack the girls with accusations of bullying, and suggesting that because as a child you used particular tactics against the weak, they must be doing the same.
Reverse Victim and Offender by saying that the girls must be guilty of 'something nasty' and the teacher is vulnerable and has been exploited by the girls.

It doesn't wash.

We don't know anything of the background or anything at all other than what is in the recording. Everything else is speculation.

Doodledog I see you ignore the fact that someone, and we have no idea who, has been asked to write a statement. This doesn't happen in schools unless a major incident has happened.
Let's put it like this. Suppose it was your child who had been told by these girls they were "crazy" suppose your child had been told they were not normal, would you be happy with that?

Whatever the issue (and the trans issue is actually largely irrelevant in this discussion) no teacher can allow one or more children to upset another child and just ignore it.
As I said (and I noticed you ignored this) the girls are entitled to believe what they like. They are not entitled to use those beliefs to upset or criticise another child.

I agree Musicgirl.

Feminism is being slowly eroded due to the push by the trans lobby to further their cause at the expense of women and girls.

Obviously the 'majority' have had a good run over the centuries, and minorities have had to fight to gain ground on certain issues. However in this case we are talking about girls at a vulnerable stage who need privacy and frankly have a right to want separate facilities.

The trans issue in sport is another area of contention.
My nieces are sporty but as they have become older and more proficient in swimming and athletics they are now having to deal with issues regarding trans athletes who definitely have a huge physical advantage.

Personally I think competitive sport needs to have a look at alternative options, and the same with unisex toilets.

Oh dear Mollygo I’ll go back to sleep

ronib

For the cat identifiers - are litter trays to be provided? Where does this end?

Been there, done that.
You must have missed the thread.

For the cat identifiers - are litter trays to be provided? Where does this end?

Just nasty victim blaming to excuse the perpetrator.

I agree. It's twisting what was said, and inventing a backstory to discredit children. I think that it is objectively a good thing that this has come out, but I feel for all concerned: the Head (although she should have had a better grip on the way her staff treated the children), the catchild if there is one and the girls in the recording. It must be really difficult for them to know that their motives are being questioned - in fact worse, invented - by total strangers.

“You’re saying you identify with the gender with which you are born, which is really despicable.”

The option was about gender identification and the girls were then told that “If you don’t like it you should go to another school”.

I can’t find any justification whatsoever for a teacher speaking to pupils in that way.

I can’t hear any sobbing in the background, just normal school hubbub.

The girls argued in a calm and respectful way so the “it was all their fault for winding the teacher up in a clever and malicious way “ just doesn’t hold water at all.

Just nasty victim blaming to excuse the perpetrator.

Ok, NS, you see the situation differently from me, which is fine. As I say, we really don't know the context or what happened before or after the situation.

As a matter of interest, and leaving cats out of it, do you think that children should be made to agree that boys can be girls and vice versa?

I have listened to this twice and this:
a child was called 'despicable' for not agreeing that another girl can be a cat
was not what I heard.

Just saying. Not trying to be rude.

Not acceptable indeed.
Neither was a boy having the opportunity to commit serious sexual assaults because girls have to use a gender neutral toilet at a school.
The answer to the first issue was to remove who or what caused the problem. I wonder if the answer in the second case will be to reallocate single sex toilets.

We can all make up stories about what might have been going on, though. The point, IMO, is that a child was called 'despicable' for not agreeing that another girl can be a cat. Whichever way you dress it up, that is a fact, and it is not acceptable.

What IS in the recording (at the start) is someone weeping in the background and the teacher saying how dare you, you've really upset someone (presumably to the girls as one answers her)... The teacher continues... saying things like 'you should be in an asylum' (which one girl denies).

This sounds to me like unpleasantness Doodledog and is probably as valid as the rest of the recording.

I agree, Musicgirl. None of this is compatible with the feminism that many of us believe in.

Glorianny, you are using DARVO tactics to discredit the girls.

Deny that the teacher is wrong (or weaken the idea by saying she 'doesn't handle it well', meaning that she didn't instigate the issue).
Attack the girls with accusations of bullying, and suggesting that because as a child you used particular tactics against the weak, they must be doing the same.
Reverse Victim and Offender by saying that the girls must be guilty of 'something nasty' and the teacher is vulnerable and has been exploited by the girls.

It doesn't wash.

We don't know anything of the background or anything at all other than what is in the recording. Everything else is speculation.

Smileless2012

Regardless of what may have happened or not, the teacher's responses were unacceptable and unprofessional. To accuse her students of craftily leading her down the garden path into a discussion is wasn't necessary to have is absurd. If she's so easily led then she's in the wrong professsion.

You say Glorianny that the girls can believe what they like well clearly not with this particular teacher.

I agree she doesn't handle it well, but teenage girls are experts on discovering a teacher's weaknesses and using them. I can remember doing it when I was at school. For some reason French teachers seemed especially vulnerable.

The biggest problem being faced is that it is girls and women who have to accept men self-identifying as women and the trans lobby without question. Feminists have fought for our rights, probably many gransnetters among them over the years, but it is these very rights that are being eroded. Indeed, girls and women are being erased altogether. As far as schools are concerned, could not the disabled toilets be used by trans pupils? It would be a lot less expensive than installing gender neutral toilets. As far as I can see, gender neutral means that girls have no privacy at a time when they need it most of all. It is not hard for any of us to imagine being thirteen and experiencing the embarrassment of a first period which would be even more difficult to deal with knowing that boys were on the other side of the door. As older ladies, there are very few of us that like shared facilities for all the reasons already mentioned but we grin and bear it in extremis. For young girls it can be mortifying.

Regardless of what may have happened or not, the teacher's responses were unacceptable and unprofessional. To accuse her students of craftily leading her down the garden path into a discussion is wasn't necessary to have is absurd. If she's so easily led then she's in the wrong professsion.

You say Glorianny that the girls can believe what they like well clearly not with this particular teacher.

Lathyrus

NotSpaghetti

Lathyrus

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

Exactly.

Though as Glorianny says there is clearly a back-story of something going on between the girls and someone else (that was probably rather nasty).

There’s no indication there was “something going on between girls”.

The conversation is about an opinion expressed within a lesson not an incident. A transgender student may objected or been offended by that opinion but that doesn’t constitute something “nasty”.

Or perhaps the nastiness came from those who are pro gender choices and knew the teacher would add her authority to their bullying of those who disagreed.

We don’t know what else has gone on. Only what is clearly recorded.

Then listen right to the end. The teacher says "They are now writing a statement. I would imagine that you will be asked to write one as well" If you know anything about education something has obviously happened before the recording. Pupils are not asked to write statements unless there has been an incident, usually a bullying incident.
The girls are very clever and the teacher doesn't handle things well. Instead of focussing on the incident she is led very. craftily down the garden path and into a discussion there was no necessity to have. The reason for bullying, abusing or disrespecting another pupil is irrelevant. The girls can believe what they like, they cannot upset another child by using their personal beliefs against that child.

They might be if they took the job knowing that's the school's ethos Molly.

A boy has been arrested by police investigating reports of serious sexual assaults in a gender neutral toilet at a school.
The fact that the teacher was in the wrong has already been established.
More worrying in the light of the OP, is if a teacher stands up and says gender neutral toilets are not OK and that they leave girls at risk of harm, loss of dignity etc, would they be sacked too?

NotSpaghetti

Lathyrus

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

Exactly.

Though as Glorianny says there is clearly a back-story of something going on between the girls and someone else (that was probably rather nasty).

There’s no indication there was “something going on between girls”.

The conversation is about an opinion expressed within a lesson not an incident. A transgender student may objected or been offended by that opinion but that doesn’t constitute something “nasty”.

Or perhaps the nastiness came from those who are pro gender choices and knew the teacher would add her authority to their bullying of those who disagreed.

We don’t know what else has gone on. Only what is clearly recorded.

Lathyrus

It’s a great pity if the headline grabbing cat issue detracts from the way the teacher behaved and whether the school takes action on dealing with bullying.

Exactly.

Though as Glorianny says there is clearly a back-story of something going on between the girls and someone else (that was probably rather nasty).

And yes to all of that, Lathyrus. We cross posted, but I agree with both of your posts.