Fawcett Society's Victory for Women

It's quite important to unpick his appeal to young men I think.

Agreed. What he says is disturbing, but the fact that so many young men and boys look up to him is more so. Why does he have the appeal that he does?

I can't begin to answer that, but there is a groundswell of anti-feminism across the world - some under the guise of religion and 'traditional' values, some connected to so-called 'gender' and some has never gone away. It feels as though the efforts of the past decades have, if not been pointless, then have been for less gain than we thought. Things looked as though they were moving forward (eg I have had fewer restrictions than my mother's generation, and my daughter has significantly fewer than me), but I fear for the generations of girls growing up now, and for their children. As resources get fewer, things like AI changing life for everyone and other shifts in thinking and the organisation of life, I really feel that things could go into reverse.

Another thing, maybe more specific to Clarkson, is that we have lost the faux respect that many men claimed to have for women. We all know that a lot of it was top show, but things like opening doors and not swearing when there were 'ladies present' are now old-fashioned, and nothing has replaced it, so whilst at one time a man saying something so revolting would have been considered unchivalrous, which was also 'unmanly' (even if he kept his wife chained to the kitchen, or used violence to 'keep her in line'), now it is deemed ok. So many people now say 'well, women wanted equality' as though that means that men can behave appallingly towards us, and I wonder if that is responsible for at least some of it.

I thought the response to Andrew Tate wasnt helpful although I am not sure what would have been a better response. Maybe to point and laugh at the sad man. It's quite important to unpick his appeal to young men I think.

Anniebach

Do these men who want to treat women they disapprove of this way tell you this ?

Look up Andrew Tate Anniebach although he is banned by most social media outlets now because of his misogynistic views. His influence upon impressionable young boys has been widely criticised.

I have known men who do, although much less likely to happen now. Locker room stuff repeated. Certainly evidence in coercive abuse cases report this directly.

On the other hand I've known since the 70's men who are disgusted with it and want change.

I am not sure what you are referring to Anniebach but in the case of Jeremy Clarkson I think he told the newspaper exactly that.

Do these men who want to treat women they disapprove of this way tell you this ?

I think it is possible that Jeremy Clarkson thought he was being very clever and following n the footsteps of the great satirists like Swift, whose suggestion of a solution to Irish poverty was the outrageous idea that they should fatten their children and sell them as food to the rich English. The point is of course that Swift's proposal was completely unthinkable and made no personal references whatsoever. Unlike Clarkson's which targeted an individual and was based on a fictional scenario which gave a graphic portrayal of the way some men would like to treat women they disapprove of. Basically he's not as clever as he thinks he is and he got it so wrong.

Ilovecheese I've observed that it partly depends on country of origin, some are far more traditional than others. And how long their family has been in the UK, too.

Also another factor at work - sometimes young people decide to embrace a culture or religion enthusiastically and want to make that statement. In which case, up to them.

People watching is fascinating, whatever the culture. I occasionally watch those "999" at night police Real life stuff, and dress codes are certainly minimal...) thats not justifying anything, or disapproving, btw, just my feeling that sometimes a little more fabric might be more flattering...

Wyllow3 I also live in a very multicultural area and agree with most of what you have observed about dress. The only think I could say that differs from what you have seen and overheard is that where I live it is the younger women who wear more restrictive dress than their elders.

Ilovecheese

I don't think Jeremy Clarkson would have felt emboldened (if that is the right word) to write that vile diatribe if he had been directing it at anyone else other than Meghan Markle. Her vilification by the press has, I think, led him to believe that he could write anything, as disgusting as he liked about her, and get away with it.
I am glad that someone had the courage to call him out about it. it is a very difficult thing to do and risks being accused of lacking a sense of humour, which is so often directed at women to try and fight against misogyny.

Yes.

He has also made some very racist remarks.

That, "haven't you got a sense of humour" is used as a defence so often, still.

And of course a sense of humour is needful to all get along together - it's when its tied up with power it becomes most toxic, manipulative, or when its a borderline hate crime.

Clarkson is well liked for what he does best - enthusiasm for cars etc and his knowledge. He could be an example for men - but doesn't bring out the best.

Emboldened is the right word Ilovecheese and you make an excellent point.

Discussion on appearance does always seem to be predominantly about women, apart from Boris of course Wyllow and you're right in what you say, especially if women are accused of 'asking for it' because of their attire.

Men are influencing what women wear every time a woman looks in the mirror before she goes out, and checks that she isn't wearing anything that a man may find provocative, and attract unwanted attention, or worse.

Well, I did try. Will try again.

Further to my last post I was musing on "dress codes" for women in our white culture. And wondering how much men influence them. They certainly did, and there are lots of examples in abusive situations where partners insist on us not wearing this or that. As in you are flaunting yourself to other men or you only look good in this or that. Was thinking of the situations where women are accused of "Asking for It" because of the way they dress.

And of course the classic reporting where what a woman wears becomes the centre of say a political story (as opposed to enjoying looking at Ascot Hats or what a celeb wears where the dress is the point).

I don't think Jeremy Clarkson would have felt emboldened (if that is the right word) to write that vile diatribe if he had been directing it at anyone else other than Meghan Markle. Her vilification by the press has, I think, led him to believe that he could write anything, as disgusting as he liked about her, and get away with it.
I am glad that someone had the courage to call him out about it. it is a very difficult thing to do and risks being accused of lacking a sense of humour, which is so often directed at women to try and fight against misogyny.

Smileless2012

^males feeling they have the right to do or say or change what they like because it suits them^ and I would add to that Molly as long as the only ones who may suffer for it are women.

👏👏

males feeling they have the right to do or say or change what they like because it suits them and I would add to that Molly as long as the only ones who may suffer for it are women.

^ Please could we return this one to the original subject.^
How many times have I thought that when seeing yet another deviation by a poster.
It’s awkward when people deviate from the OP and discuss what they see as important to them.
Was Clarkson’s speech acceptable? No.
Is removing female rights to single sex toilets by converting them into gender neutral toilets? No.
Both are examples of misogyny -males feeling they have the right to do or say or change what they like because it suits them. The shame is when that action is supported by women of either sex.

And as I have already pointed out Glorianny that is not the issue as you know very well, and that's my last word on this issue in this thread.

I'm sure that everyone contributing to this discussion is fully aware of what constitutes male violence and misogyny. Has anyone here advocated Clarkson's treatment of Meghan? I've not seen it.

Smileless2012

Sharing a toilet, ie men and women using the same single occupancy facilities, that only admits one person at a time is something I'm sure the vast majority, if not all of us have done at some time. On a plane or a train, just like you have Glorianny.

But as you know, that is not the issue. The problem, as you well know is when men make use of toilets that are for women and/or when women's toilets are re designated as gender neutral, leaving men's toilets for men and as a result there are insufficient facilities for women only.

Maybe you wouldn't have a problem with one room with separate cubicles being used by women and men but I, and many women do and we should never be forced into using them because some men and some women don't mind.

But as I have already pointed out presumably women do use the mixed facilities. They do so on trains and on planes and in many other places. so those facilities are acceptable. No one has yet come on any thread (and really do we never discuss anything else?) and say they have been on a train, a plane or in a cafe where they would or could not go.
And that's my last word. There's a thread about toilets.

Please could we return this one to the original subject. The terrible misogyny which has been permitted in our press until this landmark ruling.
If anyone thinks that transwomen in toilets are as dangerous, as the punishment advocated by Clarkson, for a woman he dislikes, the resulting reactions of men reading such hatred and the effects for women they fall out with, they know little about male violence. And yes the fictional representation wasn't pleasant, but advocating such treatment in reality is much worse.

VioletSky

Total thread hijack then

Sad that there are those who are only interested in what's important to them (something they can argue over usually) and can't stay on topic working towards resolving an important issue

Sorry glorianny

Hopefully it gets back on track

This one was hijacked by a discussion of how far and how often a number of posters agreed with a particular one, and later into a discussion of how far 'we' (unspecified) should get involved in the treatment of women in other cultures and countries. Both important to the person posting about them, doubtless, but nothing to do with the OP.

Thread drift happens. Sometimes it is organic, as in 'real life' conversations when people make connections as they speak - it's not deliberate and nobody is 'taking over' the conversation.

Sometimes it is because someone has what is being called on this thread 'an obsession' and drops in an irrelevance or a virtue-signalling soundbite. Usually in that case the thread drifts back again, but not until others have had a chance to respond to that irrelevance, as the alternative is to leave it there unchallenged.

It was ever thus. Some posters will see self-absorption and sanctimony where others will see slight but relevant tangents.

Thank you Smileless2012. Well put.

Sharing a toilet, ie men and women using the same single occupancy facilities, that only admits one person at a time is something I'm sure the vast majority, if not all of us have done at some time. On a plane or a train, just like you have Glorianny.

But as you know, that is not the issue. The problem, as you well know is when men make use of toilets that are for women and/or when women's toilets are re designated as gender neutral, leaving men's toilets for men and as a result there are insufficient facilities for women only.

Maybe you wouldn't have a problem with one room with separate cubicles being used by women and men but I, and many women do and we should never be forced into using them because some men and some women don't mind.

Thinking of modest dress and hijabs my observation (I pass through an area where lots of Muslims live everyday and also am a gym member of a very multi cultural gym.)

My observation, and discussions, reveal a wide range of views and levels of modest dressing. From the traditional black to the very pretty colored trouser and dress outfits ( I’ve forgotten their name) and floaty headscarves.
I was intrigued to see 3 girls do their swimming class in modest swimwear, but others not. In the gym itself adults do ‘variety’. I’ve never asked if anything was forced on women but definitely feel it’s often a matter of what the individual is comfortable with and how it matches their own religious values. (As I hear the younger women chat about clothes and so on I do feel it’s partly a generational thing, but clearly there are a group where males do impose codes! )

Also reflecting that being women generally we are certainly not without pressures on how to dress, whole complex codes sort of taken for granted, as well as sometime coercion from some men, but hopefully boiling down to the same, ‘what I’m comfy with’.

VioletSky🤣🤣🤣🤣
You should see the thread about gender neutral toilets. That strayed onto a totally different subject and if I’m not mistaken, posters happily contribute to the diversion.

The subject of public toilets only arose because the feelings of Muslim women were being discussed. The question "Why should a woman do something she finds unacceptable because men are making other women do any thing?" led on to asking why Muslim women should have to share all spaces with men, when they really don't want to.
Single cubicles such as those on trains are not shared spaces, larger facilities like those in schools are the ones that are becoming shared spaces.
The two are not really comparable.

Oh, and threads do wander from the op from time to time.

Total thread hijack then

Sad that there are those who are only interested in what's important to them (something they can argue over usually) and can't stay on topic working towards resolving an important issue

Sorry glorianny

Hopefully it gets back on track