Weapons to Ukraine

Cluster bombs - which have a high rate of civilian mortality. War is a dirty business, and in the end no side is without sin I think.

However, NATO is another issue altogether. I suppose we know what we are doing but I do wonder.

Yes I’m very uneasy, I have been since it was obvious that Ukraine’s spring offensive has not been going well, I knew that the USA/Europe would have to step in as this proxy war must not be a victory to Russia.

Russia has been using cluster munitions to attack Ukraine since the start of the invasion. Ukraine are arguing that they should therefore also be able to use these on their own territory in defensive operations. Around 110 countries, including the UK, have agreed to ban these weapons, but the U.S.A., Russia and Ukraine are not on the list. Cluster bombs are highly controversial, as some of the bomblets do not detonate immediately, and explode later, often causing civilian casualties. I personally have some difficulty with the concept that there's a right way and a wrong way to kill someone with a weapon of war. The same rather strange approach applies to plastic, hard to detect anti-personnel mines, which 140 countries have also agreed to ban. I'd be much more impressed if there was as much effective support for a ban on all nuclear weapons, which Putin is constantly referring to as he is gradually backed into a corner. Although there is a UN treaty to ban them, and many countries have signed to date, not one of them was actually armed with nuclear weapons. All war is an obscenity, and if we start selectively suggesting that certain weapons are inhumane, we risk implying that those lethal weapons we choose not to ban are somehow acceptable. Strange logic, and I'm not comfortable with it.

Good post NanaDana.

Mistake

If we want Ukraine to win (whatever that means in practice) they have to have weapons that kill more Russian soldiers on a ground battlefield hence cluster bombs. All weapons have undesirable side effects.

Biden is resisting Ukraine’s bid to join NATO “because it is not ready - democratic issues” and indeed looking at various academic reports I can understand now why Biden has taken that position.

Ukranian’s are not so “free” democratically as they could be - there are issues with free speech and press restrictions amongst other things.

I think this will also hamper their application for EU membership. I’m sure Germany for one will resist their membership.

If they join NATO won’t it mean that NATO will be at war with Russia and the whole thing will escalate frighteningly?

MayBee70

If they join NATO won’t it mean that NATO will be at war with Russia and the whole thing will escalate frighteningly?

Yes that is the other issue that Biden talked about. But I do think that the intention is to give every assistance possible, hence the clusters bombs apparently to tied the ukranians over until the big stuff like air power come on line.

I see Turkey is dead set against it..

Ukraine is not going to win with the weapons supplied currently, cluster bombs are no going to be a war changer, much more is needed.
I would be very concerned if NATO decide to escalate the support to Ukraine, because of the risk of hostilities spreading to other nations that supply weapons, including the UK. Poland would be especially sensitive to that prospect, Germany too

The purely practical reason that Ukraine is highly unlikely to join NATO whilst the conflict with Russia continues, is that once a member, an attack on any member is considered to be an attack on NATO itself. In which case, the West would then be in effect, in a full-blown war with Russia.

Give Ukraine whatever it takes to finish this WAR with Russia, preferably with Putin in chains and Alexie Navalny released and all the other people who were brave enough to stand up to him. 🇺🇦

Back in the 70's and 80's 'Cold War', facing the real prospect of massed attacks by Warsaw Pact armoured divisions across West Germany, we would have relied upon the RAF's BL755 Cluster Bombs to help repel them. We actually used the BL755 against the Argentine invaders in the Falklands War. Notwithstanding the treaty we signed in 2007 when we were not under a direct threat, it seems a bit hypocritical for us now to seek to deny Ukraine their use at a time of their national peril.

Ben Wallace must be regretting his comment that the Ukrainians are not sufficiently grateful for the assistance being given by the west, and Biden must now feel his decision not to appoint Wallace as NATO chief is vindicated, and comments such as that have been avoided.

Whatever the west, is it is not acting against its own interests, rather ukraine as well as defending its sovereign territory is fighting a proxy war on behalf of the west whose interest lie firmly in seeing Russia defeated.

Bodach

Back in the 70's and 80's 'Cold War', facing the real prospect of massed attacks by Warsaw Pact armoured divisions across West Germany, we would have relied upon the RAF's BL755 Cluster Bombs to help repel them. We actually used the BL755 against the Argentine invaders in the Falklands War. Notwithstanding the treaty we signed in 2007 when we were not under a direct threat, it seems a bit hypocritical for us now to seek to deny Ukraine their use at a time of their national peril.

Indeed. What held the Russians beyond the Fulda gap, in the cold war - apart from threats of munition use?

Comma in wrong place should be after the “whatever the west is,”

NanKate

Give Ukraine whatever it takes to finish this WAR with Russia, preferably with Putin in chains and Alexie Navalny released and all the other people who were brave enough to stand up to him. 🇺🇦

Agreed.

Anything needed (apart from people) to keep war on their soil.

I was surprised that there was no commitment from NATO itself to supply weapons. It has been left to individual countries to decide what to send.
Even basic ammunition and artillery shells have been short, now that Russia has had time to erect defenses a gear up production it’s going to take a major coordinated effort from the west to out gun Russia

Russia’s response to the summit was very belligerent so I’m expecting it to get a lot worse before it gets better

Whitewavemark2

Ben Wallace must be regretting his comment that the Ukrainians are not sufficiently grateful for the assistance being given by the west, and Biden must now feel his decision not to appoint Wallace as NATO chief is vindicated, and comments such as that have been avoided.

Whatever the west, is it is not acting against its own interests, rather ukraine as well as defending its sovereign territory is fighting a proxy war on behalf of the west whose interest lie firmly in seeing Russia defeated.

He’s going!

Katie59

I was surprised that there was no commitment from NATO itself to supply weapons. It has been left to individual countries to decide what to send.
Even basic ammunition and artillery shells have been short, now that Russia has had time to erect defenses a gear up production it’s going to take a major coordinated effort from the west to out gun Russia

Russia’s response to the summit was very belligerent so I’m expecting it to get a lot worse before it gets better

NATO holds no weapons.

When you consider the darkness that is space, one planet stands alone. It is light, beautiful and blue - full of amazing plants and animals. There may not be anywhere else like it. It is ours. And yet we want to blow it up and destroy it. I could weep.

That's brilliant, Skydancer. I wish we could get this message across to every leader of every country on our beautiful planet.

Something that really threw me about weapons in Ukraine, was that there use to be nuclear weapons stored there. Ukraine agreed to get rid of them in 1994 (I think), when both the USA and Russia made an agreement to ensure the safety of Ukraine.

Skydancer

When you consider the darkness that is space, one planet stands alone. It is light, beautiful and blue - full of amazing plants and animals. There may not be anywhere else like it. It is ours. And yet we want to blow it up and destroy it. I could weep.

Sometimes I imagine that, looking at Earth from space and thinking what a load of destructive idiots are in charge.

I don’t think the Ukraine should join NATO, either. They have different needs and are not in the North Atlantic anyway. Help them in the current war ,for sure ,but that won’t go on forever. Who will the next war be against after Russia finally backs off ? George Orwell hit the nail on the head.