Malnutrition in England

Doodledog

*However, with 'less choice' who selects the choices? It seems people have many varied likes and dislikes. On GN we read of people who love peanut butter or hate peanut butter, love cheese or hate cheese, love tofu or hate tofu, love veg or hate veg, etc. Who chooses 'the good balanced' foods?*
I appreciate that that is difficult. But I also think that being 'picky' largely comes from having a lot of choice, and if children get used to a limited choice from the age of four or five they will adapt. In my imaginary scenario there would be a choice of two meals, so that if someone really hated something they wouldn't have to eat it, and even if they weren't keen on the alternative they would probably at least be tempted to try it. Time would tell what was popular and what was often rejected.

As has been said, it is one meal a day, and the parents could supplement it on the days their child didn't fill up at lunch. If packed lunches and unpopular food goes in the bin anyway, I can't see what there is to lose, really. At least it would be a start, and nobody would be hungry.

I wish somebody would tell the Neuro-divergent that then maybe my niece wouldn't be in hospital with an eating disorder! My daughter would sooner starve than eat anything spicy (evenly mildly, wet or a host of other things which somebody else (including me) wouldn't bother about. I started off with the mindset that she would eat what was put in front of her if she didn't get a choice...what a learning curve that was!

However, with 'less choice' who selects the choices? It seems people have many varied likes and dislikes. On GN we read of people who love peanut butter or hate peanut butter, love cheese or hate cheese, love tofu or hate tofu, love veg or hate veg, etc. Who chooses 'the good balanced' foods?
I appreciate that that is difficult. But I also think that being 'picky' largely comes from having a lot of choice, and if children get used to a limited choice from the age of four or five they will adapt. In my imaginary scenario there would be a choice of two meals, so that if someone really hated something they wouldn't have to eat it, and even if they weren't keen on the alternative they would probably at least be tempted to try it. Time would tell what was popular and what was often rejected.

As has been said, it is one meal a day, and the parents could supplement it on the days their child didn't fill up at lunch. If packed lunches and unpopular food goes in the bin anyway, I can't see what there is to lose, really. At least it would be a start, and nobody would be hungry.

Callistemon21 I think free, good, balanced school meals perhaps with less choice would be cost-effective in the long term. Healthier children, no discrimination about who gets them free or not and pupils who can concentrate better and achieve more.

Of course.

However, with 'less choice' who selects the choices? It seems people have many varied likes and dislikes. On GN we read of people who love peanut butter or hate peanut butter, love cheese or hate cheese, love tofu or hate tofu, love veg or hate veg, etc. Who chooses 'the good balanced' foods?

Sorry, icanhandthemback I think free, good, balanced school meals perhaps with less choice would be cost-effective in the long term. Healthier children, no discrimination about who gets them free or not and pupils who can concentrate better and achieve more.

That might be so if it were done properly but it's not and I don't see it being so. You could allocate far more money per head if you put it where the need is greatest.

growstuff, I get what you are saying about Carbs but even as diabetics we are different. Some diabetics can eat Pasta, bread, etc in small quantities, others can't. As for putting a strain on our pancreas, the absolute gold star for keeping it in its most optimal form for the rest of your life is to make sure that you you keep your insulin requirements steady and evened out throughout the day. So if you spread your carbs carefully throughout the day, you will stand a far better chance of not needing to go onto insulin. It is far more complex than not eating carbs or what carbs you eat! It is also about obesity, exercise, etc.
Whilst we have had an explosion in diabetes, it really doesn't come down to just carb overloading. It is also because we all lead a much more sedentary life style with all the aids we have these days - we don't even have to stand up to change the TV channel. Come to that, we sit and watch tv instead of getting out and about!

DH just brought me cake 😲
Banana cake with raisins - two of my five a day?
I was trying to lose weight.

Callistemon21

Blondiescot

This has got out of hand now...

I haven't eaten any bread today ....
Just saying!
😁🍞🥖🥯

Bring on the carbs!!

Blondiescot

This has got out of hand now...

I haven't eaten any bread today ....
Just saying!
😁🍞🥖🥯

This has got out of hand now...

Norah

Calipso

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

Of course all carbs are different.

Many people eat bread as a quite healthy carb. There is nothing at all wrong with bread made properly and not full of junk. Nobody is advocating bread full of sugar and chemicals.

I'd guess many children have some form of bread at dinner.

I don't think they do. I've supervised thousands of children at school lunch times and few of them eat bread. Many of the sandwiches made at home even end up in the bin.

Calipso

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

No, they're not equal and some are digested more quickly, but they're still carbs and require insulin to be metabolised.

FWIW, I test my blood glucose three times a week six times a day, so I know which foods spike my plasma glucose levels. Every so often, I try something new to me such as a small portion of brown rice, porridge or wholegrain bread and I know they spike my levels and it takes hours for the levels to come down. Non-diabetic people will have the same spikes, but they produce enough insulin for the level to come down within two hours.

It can take years for the pancreas to wear out, so people don't realise the future problems.

Calipso

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

Of course all carbs are different.

Many people eat bread as a quite healthy carb. There is nothing at all wrong with bread made properly and not full of junk. Nobody is advocating bread full of sugar and chemicals.

I'd guess many children have some form of bread at dinner.

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

But Norah there's no mention of fruit or veg - just the baguette. It obviously depends what filling is in the baguette, but the chances are that there would still be well over 50% carbs in the meal. I'm guessing you do realise that all veggies and fruit contain carbs.

No, not all people have diabetes, but about two thirds of people over the age of 55 are overweight or obese and they could easily cut down their carbs.

Norah

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

I don't want to get too tied up in this but there is a huge difference between complex carbohydrate - derived from vegetables and pulses and whole grains which release slowly in the body and the very processed white bread which causes rapid glucose spikes and troughs. Not all carbohydrates are equal I'm afraid.

Blondiescot

That's very sad, Callistemon21 - and I suspect he's not the only one. My niece is a teacher and she, along with several of her teacher friends, keep a stash of things like granola bars and breakfast bars in a drawer because they know certain pupils don't get breakfast.

It was a while ago, BlondieScot but something I've never forgotten.
Nor have I forgotten my teacher friend telling me about a little boy whose daily packed lunch consisted of one piece of sliced bread spread with tomato ketchup. The dinner ladies and teacher on duty used to make sure he got a dinner as his mother would not apply for free school meals.

That's very sad, Callistemon21 - and I suspect he's not the only one. My niece is a teacher and she, along with several of her teacher friends, keep a stash of things like granola bars and breakfast bars in a drawer because they know certain pupils don't get breakfast.

Callistemon21 It is recommended that children get about half their calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal.

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Quote: "What is the recommended daily amount (RDA) of carbohydrates? According to the NHS, we should be consuming at least 260 grams of carbohydrates a day. The BANT Wellbeing Guidelines recommends that 50% of our food intake should come from carbohydrates."

I make baguettes most every day. I use 2.5 c flour, 1t each salt sugar and yeast, plus 1 c water. Makes 10 lunch servings. Thus lunch baguette contains 1/4c flour =23 net g carbs and 3 g protein.

Sandwich fillings provide needed protein.

Recalling the 'strictly cheese' thread--

Children (without diabetes) would have no excess carbs in protein filled baguette, piece of fruit, veg - at lunch.

Not all people have diabetes. I attempt to keep my carbs below 200g daily - to stay slim, no other reason. My bread/carb intake, at all meals, is easily accommodated in 200g carbs daily.

and whatever the reason behind a child being hungry, let's just remember that it's never the fault of the child
Well said.

I remember years ago the Children's Commissioner for Wales saying he'd asked one young boy if he was looking forward to the school holidays and was surprised when the boy said "No".
The reason was that he got fed a dinner at school but not in the holidays.

Doodledog

icanhandthemback

Of course not, MaizieD, but usually if the situation is due to their making, it is usually because there is something more involved like drug taking, alcoholism, etc and the damage done to those children means they need more support than a free school meal.

That may (or may not) be so, but one thing at a time? If children are being fed it is a start, then other issues can be dealt with too. Sorting out one thing needn't prevent other causes from being important.

Exactly. As I've repeatedly said on various threads on here, in this day and age, no child should be going hungry - and whatever the reason behind a child being hungry, let's just remember that it's never the fault of the child. We may not be able to sort out all their problems - but giving them a full tummy is at least a start.

In comparison with the vast amounts of government money that is wasted in this country, the provision of free school meals for all state pupils would cost very little.

icanhandthemback

Of course not, MaizieD, but usually if the situation is due to their making, it is usually because there is something more involved like drug taking, alcoholism, etc and the damage done to those children means they need more support than a free school meal.

That may (or may not) be so, but one thing at a time? If children are being fed it is a start, then other issues can be dealt with too. Sorting out one thing needn't prevent other causes from being important.

growstuff

Casdon

growstuff

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

I’ve been looking to see if I can find out if that’s the case. I can’t find a recent review, but according to earlier reports one on three primary schools has no, or an inadequate kitchen and the rules for the size/capacity of school kitchens were changed in 2012, so secondary schools built after then won’t either. I expect there will be a huge financial investment required if they do decide to offer free, cooked on site meals. I can’t see it happening at secondary school level in the foreseeable future.

I've worked in secondary schools built since 2012 and they had kitchens and catering staff.

Yes, but the capacity has been reduced in newly built schools as they don’t provide meals for all pupils. I know Welsh Government allocated a specific £35m to primary schools to enable them to upgrade their facilities and equipment to provide free school meals for primary age children by 2024. - some primary schools here have their meals provided from secondary school kitchens as their own facilities are inadequate.

I think free, good, balanced school meals perhaps with less choice would be cost-effective in the long term. Healthier children, no discrimination about who gets them free or not and pupils who can concentrate better and achieve more.
Agreed.

MaizieD

But, with respect, Dd, it wasn't a valid point, unless school meals have reverted to their old ways.

Jamie Oliver ran a big campaign about unhealthy school meals nearly 20years ago which led to the banning of tts and their ilk, and of daily chip!

Back in the day when school meals were the responsibility of the local authority there was pretty strict adherence to nutritional guidelines and very little choice offered. Once Thatcher privatised school meals provision there was a turkey twizzlers and chips free for all as the catering companies who took over put profits ahead of nutriton.

Fair enough. I can't edit, but accept that my example of twizzlers should have been burgers or something more correct and in line with the times.

Of course not, MaizieD, but usually if the situation is due to their making, it is usually because there is something more involved like drug taking, alcoholism, etc and the damage done to those children means they need more support than a free school meal.