Malnutrition in England

MaizieD

^ I am firmly of the belief it is not a matter for the State because I think if you are in a position of your own making that you cannot provide the basic essentials for your children, you shouldn't be having them. If you are in a position not of your own making then of course that is a different story and help should be available.^

I'm sorry, but I think that takes us back to the pernicious position of the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' poor. What do you do with the 'undeserving'? Let their children starve?

Take them away from the parents, put them in an institution and feed them good, basic nutritious food, perhaps

Sorry, icanhandthemback I think free, good, balanced school meals perhaps with less choice would be cost-effective in the long term. Healthier children, no discrimination about who gets them free or not and pupils who can concentrate better and achieve more.

Perhaps its time to look at school meals differently.
Mealtimes are an important part of the fabric of family and school life, where social skills are learned and food is enjoyed. We seem to have reached a point that school meals have been separated from the whole continuum of education and contracted out to the cheapest tender.
One of my daughters teaches at an independent school where all the staff join the children for the lunchtime meal and there are no packed lunches. Providing that meal is costed in with fees and is considered part of the children's education.
Maybe the State system should be looking at this concept as a first step towards reversing the trend of rising malnutrition in this country. And just to be clear, I don't just mean deficiency diseases and starvation, I also mean obesity which many don't seem to recognise as being caused by malnutrition.

Casdon

growstuff

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

I’ve been looking to see if I can find out if that’s the case. I can’t find a recent review, but according to earlier reports one on three primary schools has no, or an inadequate kitchen and the rules for the size/capacity of school kitchens were changed in 2012, so secondary schools built after then won’t either. I expect there will be a huge financial investment required if they do decide to offer free, cooked on site meals. I can’t see it happening at secondary school level in the foreseeable future.

I've worked in secondary schools built since 2012 and they had kitchens and catering staff.

^ I am firmly of the belief it is not a matter for the State because I think if you are in a position of your own making that you cannot provide the basic essentials for your children, you shouldn't be having them. If you are in a position not of your own making then of course that is a different story and help should be available.^

I'm sorry, but I think that takes us back to the pernicious position of the 'deserving' and the 'undeserving' poor. What do you do with the 'undeserving'? Let their children starve?

Callistemon21

You are missing the point entirely.

The whole point of advocating free nutritious school dinners for all state pupils is so that every child has a good, balanced meal each school day and there is no discrimination shown to those who have free school meals.

It is up to their parents to see that they have a balanced diet overall
I'm sure they would like to but not all can do this.

I don't think so, the difference between what I am saying is that if you are advocating a free nutritious school dinner for all state pupils, then you can offer that without it having to be cooked and you can include bread as long as the meal is balanced.
Whether that is up to the State or not is an entirely different argument. I am firmly of the belief it is not a matter for the State because I think if you are in a position of your own making that you cannot provide the basic essentials for your children, you shouldn't be having them. If you are in a position not of your own making then of course that is a different story and help should be available. As far as I am concerned, it would be better for those who can pay to pay more to get good food and for better food to be provided for those that "need" it than shove everybody in a cheap food melting pot. Quite frankly, rather than lunch, I'd like to see a good breakfast as a lot of the kids I taught didn't have breakfast and were then starving by lunchtime. How we provide that is another thread!
When I was at Secondary school, we all had tickets for lunch which we handed over at the door. These were handed out in the classroom at the beginning of the week and as money was paid directly to the office, there was no distinction between free school meals and paid for meals as far as the kids were concerned.

growstuff

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

I’ve been looking to see if I can find out if that’s the case. I can’t find a recent review, but according to earlier reports one on three primary schools has no, or an inadequate kitchen and the rules for the size/capacity of school kitchens were changed in 2012, so secondary schools built after then won’t either. I expect there will be a huge financial investment required if they do decide to offer free, cooked on site meals. I can’t see it happening at secondary school level in the foreseeable future.

But, with respect, Dd, it wasn't a valid point, unless school meals have reverted to their old ways.

Jamie Oliver ran a big campaign about unhealthy school meals nearly 20years ago which led to the banning of tts and their ilk, and of daily chip!

Back in the day when school meals were the responsibility of the local authority there was pretty strict adherence to nutritional guidelines and very little choice offered. Once Thatcher privatised school meals provision there was a turkey twizzlers and chips free for all as the catering companies who took over put profits ahead of nutriton.

I was just using them as an example to make the point .

They had Turkey Dinosaurs when my children were at primary, and I haven't had real experience of school meals since. They were vegetarian, but one of the supervisors told my son that it was ok to eat the dinosaurs if she gave him a stegosaurus, as they were herbivorous 😡. They took packed lunches from then on, but had there been decent meals it would have been a lot easier, and I think a hot meal is better, at least in winter.

but decent diet can look like, in the way that turkey twizzlers and processed potatoes will not.

I don't know if they've crept back in but turkey twizzlers were banned from school meals more than a decade ago. As was serving chips more than once a week.

But I do recall pizza and pasta being offered just about every day, which I don't think to be much better in nutritional terms...

I think the important thing is that children are not trying to learn with gnawing hunger pangs putting them off. The first priority should be to feed them, preferably with no discrimination between those deemed able to pay and those not. Overall the offering should be balanced, but a carbtastic baguette one day will do no harm if they get protein and fats on others. The emphasis should be on basic but wholesome nutrition.

If a side-effect is to stop faddiness, so much the better - I’m sure many parents would agree. I know many children turn up their noses at anything unfamiliar, or refuse to eat things they don’t like, but whilst I don’t advocate the ‘sit here until your plate is clear’ approach of my youth I do think that on the whole they will eat if they are hungry and there is little choice offered. A bowl of chunky soup and a baked potato with cheese or beans won’t cost a fortune and will keep a child full so that they can learn. It will also show them what a cheap but decent diet can look like, in the way that turkey twizzlers and processed potatoes will not.

Callistemon21

growstuff

A filled baguette is providing far more than half the calories from carbs.

That's why DGD gets a packed lunch now.
Schools sell a lot of rubbish alongside the healthier choices.

I agree with you. I gave my children well-balanced packed lunches with vegetable batons, nuts, cheese, mini sandwiches and fruit.

Incidentally, most secondary schools are equipped with kitchens and have a number of staff.

No Casdon I'm not a zealot, but I know quite a bit about nutrition.

My own diabetes was probably caused by eating too many carbs because I was never overweight, but during my childhood, 20s and early 30s, I ate quite a lot of carbs. At the time fat was considered to be the "bad guy", so I filled up on what I thought were "healthy" carbs (they were cheap too). Unbeknown to me, my pancreas was producing excess insulin to deal with them and eventually wore out.

If the point of giving children a school lunch is to compensate for bad nutrition at home, the school lunch needs to be well-balanced and something comprising mainly bread just isn't. Eating carbs will make children feel full and give them instant energy, but it's storing up all sorts of problems for the future, in addition to not providing essential fat and protein.

growstuff

Calipso

growstuff

The trouble is that if children eat cereal for breakfast and chips (or even a baked potato or pasta) in the evening and then have a carby baguette for lunch, they are overloading on carbs and not getting enough protein and fat. It will fill them up and it's cheap, but won't be doing their long-term health much good.

Absolutely this!
This pattern of eating tends to cause spikes and troughs in blood glucose rather than the sustained release of energy from protein and good fats

Thank you. I sometimes feel like Canute fighting the waves when I write about overloading of carbs.

You’re a zealot because you have to follow this diet. Your regime, although no doubt healthy for you is not going to be wanted, or eaten by the average child. You’ve got to temper ideal with reality.
I’m not saying that bread is the ideal meal component, but school kitchens aren’t staffed or sized to cook perfectly nutritionally balanced meals from scratch for hundreds of in some cases, using fresh local ingredients, you have to be realistic about what they can provide and what children will eat.

You are missing the point entirely.

The whole point of advocating free nutritious school dinners for all state pupils is so that every child has a good, balanced meal each school day and there is no discrimination shown to those who have free school meals.

It is up to their parents to see that they have a balanced diet overall
I'm sure they would like to but not all can do this.

Why does anybody think that if children are given bread for lunch, it'll be all they eat? It is one meal of their day. It is up to their parents to see that they have a balanced diet overall. If you are buying in quantity (and we were talking about schools providing lunches) then you could do a reasonable amount for £3.50. Obviously things have changed recently due to rising inflation.
The majority need a good balance of carbs, proteins and vegetables. The Healthy Food Pyramid which is what the Government advices puts Carbs at the base of the pyramid. Now, personally, I am not convinced but that is the current recommendation. The beauty of bread is that you can add vitamins, etc and you can also make it with other things in it to make it more nutritious like grains, sunflower seeds, olives, tomatoes, cranberries, etc, etc. The alternative carbs like pasta are no better for nutritional purposes unless you add something to them but they are filling and they slow down the blood sugar spike.
As a diabetic, my bread intake is minimal but then so is pasta and potatoes but I don't think that the diet I eat is necessary for non-diabetics.

growstuff

A filled baguette is providing far more than half the calories from carbs.

That's why DGD gets a packed lunch now.
Schools sell a lot of rubbish alongside the healthier choices.

A filled baguette is providing far more than half the calories from carbs.

Calipso

growstuff

The trouble is that if children eat cereal for breakfast and chips (or even a baked potato or pasta) in the evening and then have a carby baguette for lunch, they are overloading on carbs and not getting enough protein and fat. It will fill them up and it's cheap, but won't be doing their long-term health much good.

Absolutely this!
This pattern of eating tends to cause spikes and troughs in blood glucose rather than the sustained release of energy from protein and good fats

Thank you. I sometimes feel like Canute fighting the waves when I write about overloading of carbs.

Callistemon21

growstuff

The trouble is that if children eat cereal for breakfast and chips (or even a baked potato or pasta) in the evening and then have a carby baguette for lunch, they are overloading on carbs and not getting enough protein and fat. It will fill them up and it's cheap, but won't be doing their long-term health much good.

It is recommended that children get about half ther calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal..

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

That's debatable.

Sorry Casdon commercially produced wholemeal bread isn't that much healthier than white bread. A baguette contains a huge amount of bread compared with its contents, which is why it isn't balanced. Incidentally, all veggies, fruit and milk produce contain carbs, so eating bread just isn't essential, especially if it's the main part of the meal.

growstuff

The trouble is that if children eat cereal for breakfast and chips (or even a baked potato or pasta) in the evening and then have a carby baguette for lunch, they are overloading on carbs and not getting enough protein and fat. It will fill them up and it's cheap, but won't be doing their long-term health much good.

Absolutely this!
This pattern of eating tends to cause spikes and troughs in blood glucose rather than the sustained release of energy from protein and good fats

growstuff

The trouble is that if children eat cereal for breakfast and chips (or even a baked potato or pasta) in the evening and then have a carby baguette for lunch, they are overloading on carbs and not getting enough protein and fat. It will fill them up and it's cheap, but won't be doing their long-term health much good.

It is recommended that children get about half ther calories in the form of carbohydrates, some at each meal..

It is cheap, fatty food, sweet food and drinks that cause the problems with obesity.

Callistemon21

growstuff

But I bet they ate other things as well.

Horse meat amongst other things.

Why not? Incidentally, eating horse meat is regional and most French people don't eat it.

growstuff

No Casdon I'm talking about the general population. Wholemeal bread isn't that much healthier than white bread - it just provides a some extra fibre. I think it's totally wrong that school meals aren't nutritionally balanced and filling them up with bread isn't balanced.

There is nothing wrong with wholemeal bread at all, it has more fibre, vitamins and minerals than white, and is good for you unless you’re on a carb restricted diet. Obviously children shouldn’t eat it three times a day as would be the case for any foodstuff, but they should have carbs at every meal. I can’t honestly imagine children enjoying (or eating) their meal without any.