Running down the NHS so it has to be privatised?

Amalegra

An excellent comment! The hysteria that we are encouraged to believe about ‘privatisation’ is to no one’s benefit. We do indeed need to look at other models of healthcare that are getting it right! I do not believe that the Labour Party is the answer to many of the country’s problems, let alone the NHS. Remember PFI? (Blair government). Often an expensive mess! A cross party, or even Royal, Commission should be established to examine this, preferably one that will not take a decade to do so! It would also be helpful if the nation as a whole could take better care of its health. So many severe illnesses which cost the health service so dear, are lifestyle induced. Whatever happens, change must come soon as we can’t keep being encouraged to worship at the shrine of an institution which is costing us so much yet failing us so badly.

And what do you call this Amalegra?

'Groundbreaking new dementia drugs are likely to be the preserve of the rich while NHS patients will be subject to a “massive postcode lottery” when they become available for the first time in the UK, according to the co-chair of the government’s national mission to tackle the condition.

Amid multiple scientific and pharmaceutical breakthroughs – the latest of which, donanemab, is to have its full clinical trial results published at a conference in the Netherlands on Monday – more research funding and the establishment of a dedicated government taskforce, it should be a promising time for tackling the disease that affects more than 850,000 people in Britain.

But Hilary Evans, who is also chief executive of Alzheimer’s Research UK, has warned that even though a licensed treatment could become available in as little as 12 to 18 months, it will be available only to “small pockets of the UK”. And for it to be widely available even in five to 10 years’ time, huge systemic changes are needed.'

MayBee70

Saetana

MayBee70

Not only the NHS but Tony Blair said on Sky News today that Labour are going to inherit an economy with literally no money. Far worse than the one Cameron lyingly eluded to.

He wasn't lying - Cameron took office two years after the financial crash, there really was no money. I believe someone even left a note to that effect.

The note was a joke. It’s something people do. But Cameron waved it about and used it unscrupulously. And then walked out, leaving behind the Brexit mess that he’d created…

There isn't 'no money left', because that's not how the finances of a country which is able to issue its own currency (such as the UK) actually works. The country is not funded by taxation or any other sources of revenue. Taxation is just, among other things, retrieving the money that the government has issued into the economy to ensure that there isn't excess money circulating and causing inflation.

Politicians can lie about this all they like (and they certainly do) , but it doesn't make it true.

But you're no doubt sick of hearing me say this.

www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/quarterly-bulletin-2014-q1.pdf
See 'Money creation in the Modern Economy'

Also: www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/bartlett_public_purpose/files/the_self-financing_state_an_institutional_analysis_of_government_expenditure_revenue_collection_and_debt_issuance_operations_in_the_united_kingdom.pdf

As for the joke note that Liam Byrne left, I'm sure that you've brought this up before, Saetana and it's been explained before, but don't let facts interfere with tory propaganda..

Totally agree.
If this was France they'd be rioting, speaking out and be heard, whereas we English do naff all and let it all happen no matter which party is in charge.

Saetana

MayBee70

Not only the NHS but Tony Blair said on Sky News today that Labour are going to inherit an economy with literally no money. Far worse than the one Cameron lyingly eluded to.

He wasn't lying - Cameron took office two years after the financial crash, there really was no money. I believe someone even left a note to that effect.

The note was a joke. It’s something people do. But Cameron waved it about and used it unscrupulously. And then walked out, leaving behind the Brexit mess that he’d created…

Baggs

Emilymaria

Foxie48 - creeping privatisation has been a sinister goal of the Tories forever.

This may be true but what do people have in mind when they worry about privatisation of the NHS?

Do they anticipate having to pay up front for every GP appointment and either having to use all their savings to pay for eseential treatment or do without essential treatment?

Or do they envisage some kind of health insurance tax/payments rather like National Insurance or whatever other European countries with successful and free at the point of treatment systems have?

The worry is that it will be put into the hands of private insurance companies and we’ll end up with a similar system to the USA, whereby the different types of Health Maintenance Organisations (HMOs) dictate what healthcare interventions people are able to access. For a large percentage of the poor, the sick and the elderly in the USA, healthcare cover is unaffordable and people end up having to sell their homes or go bankrupt if they become ill.

MayBee70

Not only the NHS but Tony Blair said on Sky News today that Labour are going to inherit an economy with literally no money. Far worse than the one Cameron lyingly eluded to.

He wasn't lying - Cameron took office two years after the financial crash, there really was no money. I believe someone even left a note to that effect.

Its not just 6% - there is also a one off payment of well over £1000, as I understand it the pay rise equates to around 10% for the lowest paid junior doctors. Now, if anyone thinks this is unfair - you are not living in the real world. Hardly anyone in the private sector is getting pay rises in line with inflation - let alone the ludicrous demand for 35%! Even Labour could not afford to give in to that demand, I notice Starmer has been very quiet on the subject. The government accepted all the pay review bodies' recommendations in full - they could do nothing else after banging on about how they accepted the recommendations last year.

As for privatisation - its been around in the NHS for a long long time, the majority of GPs, pharmacists and dentists are private contractors. I really get tired of the hysteria about privatisation - if some services can be contracted out privately, at a reasonable price to the taxpayer, then why not?

We will certainly have to pay more in tax for our health service. I think we should all contribute to a Health tax. This would be similar to some European countries. A small charge could be made for a GP appointment which might deter time wasters. My daughter is a GP and says that frankly 60% of the patients she sees every day do not need to be there at all. Another contributor to Gransnet has also mentioned that we should also all take more responsibility for our own health. My son is a consultant surgeon and he has to operate on grossly overweight people - dangerous, risky and time consuming. He manages to save their lives. Also why shouldn’t we contribute to our food whilst in hospital? We would have to feed ourselves at home. There are now so many very expensive advances in medical help for us - and no government would be able to sustain affording all of this under present arrangements. We will have to pay more.

Not only the NHS but Tony Blair said on Sky News today that Labour are going to inherit an economy with literally no money. Far worse than the one Cameron lyingly eluded to.

The NHS has always been 'partially privatised'. GPs and dentists are mostly independent contractors. Many support services have long been contracted out. New hospitals are often financed on lease-back deals. And the NHS buys spare capacity in private hospitals all the time.

'Privatising' doesn't necessarily mean 'private health insurance'.

The NHS is being deliberately failed by this gov't to push people to go private, already several treatments I used to get free are not available (podiatry, for my twisted feet)
If the Tories get in again the same thing currently happening to NHS dentists will happen to GP's, the seeds are already sown.
The NHS currently wastes a lot of money on commissioning private companies to provide services and these organisations have shareholders who expect a payout. Stopping this and closing tax loopholes available to wealthy people will bring in more money without raising taxes for ordinary folk.
I take my hat off to the hardy souls who stick with the NHS so they can help more than just the poor and I can't wait to vote this gov't out.

graykat

Between 2010 and 2019 the UK invested 18%less than the average of 14 other European countries.

Yes, and other countries pay higher taxes,plus compulsory health Insurance . That's why its a better service, with better outcomes. Before anyone flays me, the not so better off get their Insurance paid by the state.

The NHS has been failing for many years and the more money being ploughed into it from our taxes and NI contributions, the deeper into debt it goes without any visible means of improvement. Meanwhile, waiting lists for operations, treatment and consultations grow even more unacceptably longer and it is Joe Public who is suffering. It does not seem to matter what political party is in power, the results from the NHS are the same. A change of some sort is long overdue.

A small rise in Income Tax, as Boris suggested, would be a fair way of giving the extra funding needed to settle all these horrible strikes, and to make the NHS workers feel valued!

Could one of the Labour supporters here tell me just how we should fund the NHS. This is an ongoing open sore that nobody seems to be able to treat. We give 44% of our public money to the NHS. Should we make that 50% or 69%?
Do you really think the Conservatives want to bin public medicine? If so you are politically naive as the NHS is a sacred cow in UK. Learn from our friends in the EU and in Australia for instance. I keep telling you how good the Australian system is. It would take a great deal of political courage to reform the NHS and no political party has the guts to do anything but to meddle around the edges. You still have people saying the NHS is the best in the world but sadly however hard working the staff are, things do not seem to get better.

I understand the fear of the American system though I think even that works okay for most people.

But there's a whole nearby continent of systems not so very different from the NHS except in how funding is collected just across the English Channel. If push came to shove, why wouldn't we use some of those ideas?

I have a close family member who has worked very hard in the nhs for 25 years. There was no pay increase for 10 years which is why 3 or 4% settlement is not acceptable. Over the last 10 years she has watched with horror the Nhs being sold off, bit by bit to private profit seeking companies.
Look at the other utilities which have been sold off, the bosses get an obscene fortune, for failing and the investors demand their dividends.

Of course nothing is put back into what should be a public service which has been deliberately run down and now is on it’s knees. What a disgraceful way to treat the public and the loyal hardworking staff; what a shocking mess they have created.
I fear an American system, the worst possible result, but fear that’s what is on the cards HELP! SOS!

Emilymaria

Foxie48 - creeping privatisation has been a sinister goal of the Tories forever.

This may be true but what do people have in mind when they worry about privatisation of the NHS?

Do they anticipate having to pay up front for every GP appointment and either having to use all their savings to pay for eseential treatment or do without essential treatment?

Or do they envisage some kind of health insurance tax/payments rather like National Insurance or whatever other European countries with successful and free at the point of treatment systems have?

Yessss!!!

Foxie48 - creeping privatisation has been a sinister goal of the Tories forever.

It will be the final nail in their coffin if they get rid of inheritance tax, making the rich even richer while millions of us less fortunate struggle! This is a very selfish, self satisfied Tory party!

The medics in our family have been saying for quite a few years now that under the Conservatives, there is a deliberate ploy to bring Anerican-style health-care systems to the UK.

The idea that it will be an insurance company that will - or will not - give permission for your drug/consultation/operation should scare us all silly.

On holidays I have spoken with many Americans regarding their health care system. They all knew of people losing houses or becoming bankrupt due to a long -standing health condition. Or, the chap I spoke to who couldn't afford his diabetes drugs (yes, he could apparently afford the holiday but said one was far cheaper than the other and he really needed a boost).

I am obviously not party to Government plans and neither is anyone in my family but the day-to-day running of our wonderful NHS shows that there is another agenda. If you have ever dealt with an insurance company and achieved exactly the outcome you believed you were entitled to, well done. I believe that many (most) insurance companies try to have an outcome that's best for them. Imagine that if you need health care?

I don't have a crystal ball but do heed thoughts from people working in the NHS right now. We should be very careful with our NHS and the direction it takes.

When Labour took over waiting lists for surgery were years. My mil was on a 5 year list fir cataracts and borrowed to pay privately. Other operations were even longer,
Labour brought the lists down, hospitals were renovated and yes that cost money but surely it was what was needed after shameful lack of investment by years of Tory governments.
We should all remember that conservatives have been in control fir 75% of the time so are surely 75% responsible fir the mess we are in today.
That’s why I don’t vote for them.

Amalegra

An excellent comment! The hysteria that we are encouraged to believe about ‘privatisation’ is to no one’s benefit. We do indeed need to look at other models of healthcare that are getting it right! I do not believe that the Labour Party is the answer to many of the country’s problems, let alone the NHS. Remember PFI? (Blair government). Often an expensive mess! A cross party, or even Royal, Commission should be established to examine this, preferably one that will not take a decade to do so! It would also be helpful if the nation as a whole could take better care of its health. So many severe illnesses which cost the health service so dear, are lifestyle induced. Whatever happens, change must come soon as we can’t keep being encouraged to worship at the shrine of an institution which is costing us so much yet failing us so badly.

No hysteria at all- but just the reality. And yes, it is a clear political choice by the Conservatives.

Yes, it is interesting an valuable to look and study other systems that work well. Nothing wrong with that. But this is NOT what the Cons are doing- they are deliberately sabotaging the NHS in order to go for a very lucrative private market, USA style- that will leave the poorer, the elderly and the sick without a proper safety net- just as in the USA.

Friends and family report constantly of the unability to get an appointment, to get even simple treatment, and others who have serious issues on hugely long waiting lists- their life on hold for months, their stress levels added to their condition, and making it worse, huge, and some getting worse and worse as their treatment or operations take so long to rise up the waiting list. So many are now using their last bits of savings to go private as the pain, stress and risks are so high. It is appalling, cruel and ... a clear political choice.

Calling their pain, worsening of condition and stress 'hysteria' shows a total lack of sensitivity, empathy, and understanding.

Between 2010 and 2019 the UK invested 18%less than the average of 14 other European countries.