The two child limit for benefits

biglouis

*biglouis these " waste producers" ? Are they not currently, and in the future,paying their taxes to support essential services, driving the buses and staffing medical hubs and police stations? Are you not ever in need of these*

Ive heard this rubbish argument before (so many times). Its the kind of thing my mother would have said and she wasnt very bright either.

Yes of course I "might" need someone to support me, as may you. In the meantime I am still subbing your children and your breeding activities and you are paying nothing equivalent that I want or can use.

Anyone who has a child does so upon my grace and my generosity.

You are already as dependent on services provided by the rest of the population as we all are biglouis, that’s possibly the daftest statement I’ve seen on here. Unless you’re a hermit living in a cave and eating from foraging, you eat, you live in a house, you buy goods, you use electronics, you rely on services just like everybody else. And I’d wager you’ve contributed the same or less to society than many others. We all pay taxes, and you certainly aren’t subbing my children. Not having children doesn’t make you some kind of martyr.

Children need to be ‘subbed’ as they can’t fend for themselves. Who ‘subbed’ you as a child, biglouis? It is other people’s ‘breeding activities’ that provide you (and all of us) with the services and customers/clients that allowed you to make a living and contribute as much as you say you did. Your mother may have been brighter than you give her credit for.

biglouis

*biglouis these " waste producers" ? Are they not currently, and in the future,paying their taxes to support essential services, driving the buses and staffing medical hubs and police stations? Are you not ever in need of these*

Ive heard this rubbish argument before (so many times). Its the kind of thing my mother would have said and she wasnt very bright either.

Yes of course I "might" need someone to support me, as may you. In the meantime I am still subbing your children and your breeding activities and you are paying nothing equivalent that I want or can use.

Anyone who has a child does so upon my grace and my generosity.

You, yourself, are the result of your parents' "breeding activities" and until you were old enough to contribute financially - you were also 'subbed' by the grace and generosity of other people.

Even the most wealthy, who pay for their children's education and are not reliant on public transport, public health services, etc, are still dependent on an infrastructure maintained by "waste producers" - and the subsequent "waste" they produce.

If menial workers didn't tend to the sewers, water purification, dispose of rubbish, clean roads and streets, transport food to shops, clean public and private property, turn up for work to oil the wheels of commerce, deliver your post and packages... you and the rest of us would simply not be able to function because 'society' would grind to a halt.

We all pay taxes either directly or indirectly - or both, and your contribution is no more precious than anyone else's. You need and you rely on both highly-paid and lowly-paid workers, and each contributes according to their means. If someone earns £10 per hour, you cannot extract the same tax from them as from someone who earns £100 an hour - and that 'someone' who earns £100 per hour still needs the basic infrastructure provided by those that only earn £10 per hour.

If there are not enough 'waste products' from 'breeding activities' to pick crops or deliver them to shops, then we will have to invite immigrants to help us out, since you appear to disapprove of both, that's rather unfortunate for you, but that's how the system works. Not brilliantly, of course, but if you've got a better solution, you can lobby your MP, or start your own political party.

Biglouis, I know that you still work and pay income tax, but does it not occur to you that for instance my son and his wife, who you probably think you ‘subbed’ via family allowance, are now subbing you via your state pension, healthcare and any benefits you may claim for your disability?

France has long realised that it is not replacing itself - and that the pyramid of ages is inversing- so have long had a policy of increasing child allowance and other support with each child.
So the first and second child get a small amount, and more for the 3rd, and 4th , and so on - always increasing in value, per child.

I was thinking about what you wrote here Fleurpepper, all true. About 20 years ago my job in France was relocating British families to that country, and I'm sure I remember that families with 3 or 4 children were delighted and incredulous. Because not only did they receive a higher level of child support but also free holidays for the children and other benefits.

Does France still award a Médaille de la Famille française to families with a number of children?

Germanshepherdsmum

*Biglouis*, I know that you still work and pay income tax, but does it not occur to you that for instance my son and his wife, who you probably think you ‘subbed’ via family allowance, are now subbing you via your state pension, healthcare and any benefits you may claim for your disability?

IIRC, your son is highly qualified and probably paying a fair whack of tax... 'paying back' into society, in other words.

Yes Dickens. He and his wife are partners in City law firms and more than pay their way. Student loans long since repaid too.

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes Dickens. He and his wife are partners in City law firms and more than pay their way. Student loans long since repaid too.

👍

... I believe you too paid your fair share of tax - being also highly qualified!

Yes, I sure did!

I don't think the amount of tax people pay is relevant. We pay according to income, and whilst that could, IMO, be structured a lot more fairly, there is no mechanism for (or virtue in) opting to pay more. The point is that if everybody pays in, everyone can take out, so nobody should have to 'sub' anyone other than those who are unable to contribute (for various reasons that I won't list as I will miss something and have it pointed out indignantly ).

Children are net takers from the system while they are young, but they then go on to become net contributors as adults. It doesn't make sense to suggest that those without children put more in or take more out based on their parental status - they don't. The children pay for themselves over their own lives.

Doodledog

I don't think the amount of tax people pay is relevant. We pay according to income, and whilst that could, IMO, be structured a lot more fairly, there is no mechanism for (or virtue in) opting to pay more. The point is that if everybody pays in, everyone can take out, so nobody should have to 'sub' anyone other than those who are unable to contribute (for various reasons that I won't list as I will miss something and have it pointed out indignantly ).

Children are net takers from the system while they are young, but they then go on to become net contributors as adults. It doesn't make sense to suggest that those without children put more in or take more out based on their parental status - they don't. The children pay for themselves over their own lives.

I don't think the amount of tax people pay is relevant.

... in principle, I agree. However, when you are accused of being "waste producers" and your 'waste product' is then paying a wad of tax which might well contribute towards the wellbeing of those that make such accusations - it kinda does become relevant!

growstuff

Does France still award a Médaille de la Famille française to families with a number of children?

Je pense que oui.
I believe you have to raise at least 4 children of French nationality. Sometimes Monsieur le Maire nominates families from the community. There is no monetary value, it is an honorary medal, but nice to have!

Golly biglouis- your response to my post telling me that I'm " not very bright" was a little presumptuous don't you think? Most people would need to meet someone before making that judgement. Or is it that folk who disagree with you are automatically " not bright"?
If so, then we understand each other and I'm happy to be in this group with GSM, Dickens, Doodledog et tal.

...et al!

I’m honoured to be amongst such bright ladies.

Chocolatelovinggran

Golly biglouis- your response to my post telling me that I'm " not very bright" was a little presumptuous don't you think? Most people would need to meet someone before making that judgement. Or is it that folk who disagree with you are automatically " not bright"?
If so, then we understand each other and I'm happy to be in this group with GSM, Dickens, Doodledog et tal.

On Facebook (particularly) it is axiomatic that not subscribing to a (usually insulting) opinion, renders you not-very-bright. With the advice that you "get educated" because you are "deluded".

Of course, here on GN, we are usually more refined in our argument .

Thank you Dickens- understood.

Dickens

Chocolatelovinggran

Golly biglouis- your response to my post telling me that I'm " not very bright" was a little presumptuous don't you think? Most people would need to meet someone before making that judgement. Or is it that folk who disagree with you are automatically " not bright"?
If so, then we understand each other and I'm happy to be in this group with GSM, Dickens, Doodledog et tal.

On Facebook (particularly) it is axiomatic that not subscribing to a (usually insulting) opinion, renders you not-very-bright. With the advice that you "get educated" because you are "deluded".

Of course, here on GN, we are usually more refined in our argument .

Goodness, what groups do you belong to. The ones I'm on usually have answers like "it sounds like the bobbin but check the needle as well" or "X has a pattern like that but you will need to add a gusset". Really lovely, helpful people.

Even though you get the odd obnoxious being on our local groups they're usually sat on fairly quickly. GN is a thing apart for me - a blend of extremes.

DaisyAnneReturns

Dickens

Chocolatelovinggran

Golly biglouis- your response to my post telling me that I'm " not very bright" was a little presumptuous don't you think? Most people would need to meet someone before making that judgement. Or is it that folk who disagree with you are automatically " not bright"?
If so, then we understand each other and I'm happy to be in this group with GSM, Dickens, Doodledog et tal.

On Facebook (particularly) it is axiomatic that not subscribing to a (usually insulting) opinion, renders you not-very-bright. With the advice that you "get educated" because you are "deluded".

Of course, here on GN, we are usually more refined in our argument .

Goodness, what groups do you belong to. The ones I'm on usually have answers like "it sounds like the bobbin but check the needle as well" or "X has a pattern like that but you will need to add a gusset". Really lovely, helpful people.

Even though you get the odd obnoxious being on our local groups they're usually sat on fairly quickly. GN is a thing apart for me - a blend of extremes.

Goodness, what groups do you belong to.

I'm not talking about "groups" DA - these are comments made on random articles by equally random posters that appear on my feed. And I don't mean that the comments are necessarily directed at me, because I often just read and don't comment.

I do belong to certain 'interest' groups - but they are moderated, and usually the joiners are like-minded people.

I know what you mean, I’ve sometimes been quite shocked by other peoples views, but just have a look at Reddit DaisyAnneReturns, Gransnet and Mumsnet are a walk in the park in comparison if you want to see extreme views.

Thank you Casdon but I think I'll give Reddit a miss if its unpleasant. I find GN quite difficult enough to navigate.

It is DaisyAnneReturns, I don’t use it myself but I’ve seen some of the comments on there, there are no holds barred.

I think one of the things I have discovered from the Internet is how glad I am in my choice (and theirs) of friends. We forget (at our peril, I fear) how different people's view of life can be.