A vision for the future.

Glorianny

I started to watch Starmer and Blair, but I couldn't stand it. Two men in expensive suits telling us how hard it is going to be to grow the economy, just after the energy companies have announced the highest profits ever, and water companies are paying out huge dividends, whilst dumping live sewage in the sea, was too much for me.
It isn't radical thinking, it is just promoting the status quo.

👏🏻👏🏻
I do have a few doubts about Keir Starmer and there’s no sense at all in promoting the status quo as you say.Will there be any radical thinking from Labour?

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

There's nothing wrong in wearing a good suit if the man can afford it. And Labour benefits from donations from rich socialists. I like good champagne but I doubt there would ever be enough to go round.

Blair's three governments had many achievements - lists of about 30 to 50 have been compiled. Despite the attacks of the hard Left he was comfortably re-elected for the third time after the Iraq war.

In retrospect I think he made three mistakes - devolution, Iraq and continuing PFI but the achievements outweighed those in the minds of voters.

He was one of the outstanding PMs of the post-WW2 era and we would be foolish not to listen to what he has to say whether agreeing or not. I doubt we would be in the mess we are now if he had continued as PM, changing the succession so we missed out on the last batch of truly awful Tory PMs.

DaisyAnneReturns

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

Sorry but forward thinking is not just looking at the status quo and making tweaks. It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed and looking at radical solutions which will improve the lives of ordinary people.

Glorianny

DaisyAnneReturns

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

Sorry but forward thinking is not just looking at the status quo and making tweaks. It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed and looking at radical solutions which will improve the lives of ordinary people.

Not in my opinion it’s not, it’s about recognising the current position, how we got to where we are, having a long term plan to get to where we want to be, and then planning and cautiously taking the steps to get you where you want to go PDSA at it’s finest. Radical steps are ill conceived and usually disastrous, as history proves.
I thought Blair and Starmer recognised change processes well and had a sensible step by step approach planned. As for their suits - I’d have expected no less. We don’t want a PM who looks like an unmade bed.

Casdon we’ve already had the unmade bed PM😂
Radical steps if needed don’t have to be disastrous, I imagine the NHS concept would have been thought radical in it’s day.
I think the time could be right for doing things really differently next time around, and hope Labour will be thinking what’s best for the majority in this country. People who work hard, want to get on the housing ladder and be able to pay bills while having a holiday now and then.Also to take good care of the disabled and disadvantaged.
It doesn’t need all policies to be radical but one or two if it will make a big difference would be welcome.
I liked Tony Blair and a lot of what he says still makes sense, especially what he says about climate change and the UK not rushing ahead and badly affecting citizens, that whatever the UK does on green issues ( we should still try) will not effect the outcome unless China the US and India also do it.I think I read that what China has put out recently is more than we have put out harmfully, since the Industrial Revolution began.

Glorianny

DaisyAnneReturns

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

Sorry but forward thinking is not just looking at the status quo and making tweaks. It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed and looking at radical solutions which will improve the lives of ordinary people.

And you are entitled to that opinion Glorianny.

Casdon

Glorianny

DaisyAnneReturns

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

Sorry but forward thinking is not just looking at the status quo and making tweaks. It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed and looking at radical solutions which will improve the lives of ordinary people.

Not in my opinion it’s not, it’s about recognising the current position, how we got to where we are, having a long term plan to get to where we want to be, and then planning and cautiously taking the steps to get you where you want to go PDSA at it’s finest. Radical steps are ill conceived and usually disastrous, as history proves.
I thought Blair and Starmer recognised change processes well and had a sensible step by step approach planned. As for their suits - I’d have expected no less. We don’t want a PM who looks like an unmade bed.

Thank you Casdon. That is a much more comfortable end to the morning.

Well free education, comprehensive education, the NHS, even the vote were all radical policies in their day.
As perhaps was selling off the utilities and railways. What is obvious is that privatisation has massively failed. And a radical new approach is needed.
Anyone who looks at the figures for homelessness, the massive use of foodbanks and the huge personal debt problem can see that things are falling apart. The only question really being how far will people like Blair and Starmer permit things to go and is it really "future thinking" to think you can tweek little things and leave the big problems untackled, because you fear offending some section of the electorate.

Oreo

Casdon we’ve already had the unmade bed PM😂
Radical steps if needed don’t have to be disastrous, I imagine the NHS concept would have been thought radical in it’s day.
I think the time could be right for doing things really differently next time around, and hope Labour will be thinking what’s best for the majority in this country. People who work hard, want to get on the housing ladder and be able to pay bills while having a holiday now and then.Also to take good care of the disabled and disadvantaged.
It doesn’t need all policies to be radical but one or two if it will make a big difference would be welcome.
I liked Tony Blair and a lot of what he says still makes sense, especially what he says about climate change and the UK not rushing ahead and badly affecting citizens, that whatever the UK does on green issues ( we should still try) will not effect the outcome unless China the US and India also do it.I think I read that what China has put out recently is more than we have put out harmfully, since the Industrial Revolution began.

I’m in favour of radical goals Oreo, but I’m not in favour of radical steps, if that makes sense. I’m fed up with the posturing without the substance behind implementation, and the lack of learning from the things that don’t go as well as anticipated. Caution and a step by step approach that yields results is what we need at the moment to settle this country back onto an even keel in my view.

Basically I agree with you Grantanow but, going back to 1962 the Conservatives ran financially unviable hospital building programmes for, to date, 43 years. Labour ran a financially unviable hospital building programme for 13 years and it was the continuation of the Conservative programme.

I know it was part of his downfall and he should have done better but I can't help feeling I've been brainwashed It does seem that for 56 years no one has worked out how to fund hospitals.

^ It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed^

I have to agree with Glorrianny that our problems are with our failed economic model. Tinkering using the same model isn't going to solve much.

MaizieD

^ It is looking at the whole picture, where and how our economy has massively failed^

I have to agree with Glorrianny that our problems are with our failed economic model. Tinkering using the same model isn't going to solve much.

You will not convince either the majority of voters, majority of economists, or the majority of party strategists, before or probably after the election, of this though Maizie. Success is founded on the possible.

I now have two campaigns that need to run outside the next (presumably non-Tory) government.

1. PR
2. A new form of economic thinking.

I would like Citizen's Juries for both and, should they win over the public, the then government could adopt them for the second term.

There seems to be such an unwillingness in both the major parties to admit that things that were supposed to happen as a result of a policy, just didn't happen.

Water was privatised because private companies were supposed to supply the money for investment. They didn't. The policy failed.

The bedroom tax was supposed to free up social housing as single occupants moved into smaller properties. There weren't enough smaller properties for people to move into. if they moved into private rented smaller properties the housing benefit was more than for the larger social homes. The state had to pay out more .
The policy failed.

The two child benefit limit was supposed to lead to smaller families and more parents into paid work. It didn't. less parents moved into paid work and family size did not decrease.
The policy failed.

Pfis were supposed to save the state money, they turned out to do the opposite.
The policy failed.

Why can't these failures be admitted? Why not say "it was worth a try but it didn't work, let's think of something else.

I think reading the posts on GN give some insight into why, Ilovecheese.

I would like to think people would be persauded by truth but we don't seem to have any evidence that they will. There are so many reasons why people are pursauded that one person or group knows what it's doing and another doesn't and it seems to have little to do with the truth.

Lilyflower

I think 'the brightest and best' people who haven't an ounce of common sense and who think they are better than the rest of we poor mortals are the ones who make the most mischief. Their arrogance has to be seen to be believed.
ULEZ
15 minute walking cities
No meat, sugar, alcohol, lawns, cars, gas boilers, sweeteners to name a few recent demonisations
War on the motorist
Covid Lockdown
ER, BLM, WEF, WHO.
Brightest and best the lot of them.

Someone recently, on TV, can't remember his name, said this about much of what you have listed, " a suffocating, undemocratic imposition" . In a nutshell.

DaisyAnneReturns

Some are back to just voicing opinions. I'm sorry this thread lost its way but I think forward thinking is not everyone's thing. I am greatfull to the Institute for making the talks available. They are certainly food for thought.

I'll leave those who only want a regurgitation of their own opinions to enjoy this space.

Ooh I say, what a noxious retort.

Freya5

Lilyflower

I think 'the brightest and best' people who haven't an ounce of common sense and who think they are better than the rest of we poor mortals are the ones who make the most mischief. Their arrogance has to be seen to be believed.
ULEZ
15 minute walking cities
No meat, sugar, alcohol, lawns, cars, gas boilers, sweeteners to name a few recent demonisations
War on the motorist
Covid Lockdown
ER, BLM, WEF, WHO.
Brightest and best the lot of them.

Someone recently, on TV, can't remember his name, said this about much of what you have listed, " a suffocating, undemocratic imposition" . In a nutshell.

It is "in a nutshell" only if that is your bias.

I'm sure you will agree that not everyone shares that opinion. That neither makes you correct and others incorrect, or vice versa. What you are trying to see as facts are perspectives created by different biases.

I, for instance, strongly disagree with the person you quote. I agree that items in the list exist (although I see no reason for the pejorative and biased language used to describe them). However, you seem to see life from the view of the total libertarian. A person who can do what they want whenever and however they want.

I see personal liberty as essential but limited by how it impinges on other people's equal right to that liberty.

Your statement gives us a perspective view of the list, not a factual view of it. For all your apparent need to have complete liberty, you seem unwilling to compromise to enable others to have theirs. This too could be seen as arrogance.

noxious Freya5? Would you like to explain how and why that word applies to my post?

Look the word up in a dictionary DaisyAnnReturns

I’m with Glorianny and MaizieD on this one, things have to change as so many ideas and policies aren’t working.
Radical goals yes, sometimes, but they may never happen, so radical steps may just be the answer.
I see so many people in my area that life is getting so much worse for that a little tweaking just won’t do anything.

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

I liked Blair and happen to agree with his views on climate change, we should not spend so much that it impoverishes the population.
It’s a shame that he got us involved in the Iraq war and led to Afghanistan, with hindsight he was wrong, although if the Tories were in power it would have been no different. I’m hoping that Starmer will have a similar style of politics if/when he gets elected, but I fear he won’t have a outright majority.

Glorianny

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

They do have a housing policy. One thing is that they will allow LAs to avoid the “hope value” of land for development, thus being able to buy it much more cheaply, provided it is used to build affordable housing or social housing.

I know what the word means Oreo. I asked Freya because the seemed to be using the word out of its usual context. I know the use, and even the meaning of words can be changed to fit different cultural views, so I felt the enquiry worthwhile. I didn't think you would know the reason why Freya used it that way or I would have ask you. Sorry about that.

A question for you though, while you are there. Where you originally a Mumsnet member? I've only noticed you on here fairly recently.

Whitewavemark2

Glorianny

I can't decide if people like Blair and Starmer are totally ignorant about the very real problems facing society, or know about them, but don't prioritise them because the people involved often don't vote.
120,710 children were homeless or living in temporary accommodation last Christmas. Why isn't this being used to promote a proper housing policy? Why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops?

They do have a housing policy. One thing is that they will allow LAs to avoid the “hope value” of land for development, thus being able to buy it much more cheaply, provided it is used to build affordable housing or social housing.

That's tinkering again. It's no use having land to build on if you can't afford to build houses anyway. A policy which gave LA's allowances, grants or some financial rewards for building residential property would help.. Most LAs are not building any houses. The government gives out millions in grants to new businesses. Why not do the same for housing? There would be financial benefits (less to pay out to landlords in benefits) and huge health benefits,