Is UK An Elite Dictaorship?

Doodledog the simple choice of stay or go was on the referendum ballot paper. Yes it was a hoax of epic proportions if you like but in the context of this post, arguably the elite ruling group whoever they are/were under David Cameron were strongly against exiting the EU. So in this rare instance government by referendum seems to have gone against the assumed wishes of the governing elites.

ronib

Doodledog the referendum offered two choices 1. Remain 2. Leave the EU. Quite straightforward choice?
Democracy is a slow process sometimes but it does feel as if we are not in the EU regardless of whether the elite actively worked against it.

The choice of Remain or Leave was not a straightforward choice.

We all knew what Remain meant - it meant retaining the status quo, keeping our position as a very important and influential member of the European Union, with all the many benefits of belonging to the world's biggest trading bloc, yet enjoying as rebate, not being in Schengen and keeping our own currency - the best of both worlds.

Nobody knew what Leave meant. We were promised so many untrue and cotradictory versions of leaving. Some believed Daniel Hannan who said "no-one is suggesting we leave the Single Market". Some believed Boris Johnson who promised £350m a week for the NHS. Some actually believed we could leave without a deal and trade on WHO terms. Some believed Ress Mogg that there would be no need for checks between GB and NI. Some believed Farage that "they need us more than we need them". Some believed Gove when he said that the French farmers and German car makers would pressurise their governments to give in to our terms.

Lie, all lies, many different lies, and the most laughable lie of all was "we all knew exactly what we were voting for"

"Direct democracy" in the form of a fraudulent referendum was tried in the UK in 2016 - with distastrous effect.

Our democracy has evolved so that the people are free to vote in their representatives. The representatives make laws and some of them become government ministers. We expect the reps to think for themselves. They are not merely delegates mandated to act in specific ways. Hopefully we elect from amongst the most able. Direct democracy was tried in ancient Athens and it resulted in the death of Socrates. We don't need mob rule by direct democracy. At present I doubt we elect the most able judging from the mess the Tories have made.

Doodledog the referendum offered two choices 1. Remain 2. Leave the EU. Quite straightforward choice?
Democracy is a slow process sometimes but it does feel as if we are not in the EU regardless of whether the elite actively worked against it.

I can’t do anything about it even if I wanted to though Whitewave. And I think this highlights the problem discussed on another thread about the political elite enacting legislation and policies without consultation. I don’t remember this being in any manifesto but I may be wrong. As I said, this particular new rule doesn’t bother me, but I understand it bothers others and I wonder if the policy was actually put to the electorate. The wider implications bother me, but not having to show identity to vote, that doesn’t bother me.

maddyone

It can’t be resisted though Whitewave can it? It’s already been introduced.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with it. I have to prove my identity for lots of other things. I even had to have evidence of my identity (I used my passport) to register my mother’s death. I don’t know why I needed to prove my identity to do that, but I did.

You have to ask yourself why it was introduced.

The headline was to stop voter fraud. However, there is no discernible voter fraud in the U.K.

So then you have to find another explanation.

It can’t be resisted though Whitewave can it? It’s already been introduced.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with it. I have to prove my identity for lots of other things. I even had to have evidence of my identity (I used my passport) to register my mother’s death. I don’t know why I needed to prove my identity to do that, but I did.

It is essential that voters resist anything that impacts negatively on the democratic process, whether it is the dubious introduction of ID in the U.K. or the curtailment of the right to protest etc, to the USA and the threatened attack by Trump on the judiciary if he gets into power, and his attempted suppression of democratic votes in a number of states. Israeli voters are actively fighting this attack on their judiciary now.

It is a seemingly characteristic of the rise of populist authoritarianism we are experiencing in a number of countries around the world, and moderate voters of all political parties must fight this.

This is not a political party fight but a fight by all voters to ensure a healthy democracy in their country.

'an unconditional..', not 'and'

Oreo

Why do 46 other countries in Europe ask for voter ID? The answer must be it makes for safer voting and quite honestly we don’t know how much of a problem we have, which even if minor would be better solved by ID.The other concerning thing is postal voting which has big issues around it.Just cos we haven’t had ID cards here in the past isn’t a big enough reason not to have it now IMO.

We have had thread after thread on this topic, Oreo.

Following other countries like so many sheep is not a compelling reason for removing and unconditional right.

So far, apart from the 'we have to follow the herd' mentality, no-one has come up with a compelling reason for the removal of this right. 'Other countries do it' and 'There might be problems in the future' are not compelling. They're even less compelling when the party that imposed the removal of the right on us admits that they were doing it to repress the vote of certain sections.

Well, I've recently switched to postal voting, because of health and travel.

They checked I was on the electoral roll, obviously, but I also had to scan and upload my council tax bill and the middle page of my passport.

I don't know if that's countrywide, but I had to prove who I was.

The same as last time I renewed my Blue Badge.

There are a lot of scams and frauds around, with all sorts of things, and I'm quite happy to prove who I am.

Part of a modern world.

So, every 10 years I renew my passport, even though I will never use it to travel now.🙂

Why do 46 other countries in Europe ask for voter ID? The answer must be it makes for safer voting and quite honestly we don’t know how much of a problem we have, which even if minor would be better solved by ID.The other concerning thing is postal voting which has big issues around it.Just cos we haven’t had ID cards here in the past isn’t a big enough reason not to have it now IMO.

Oreo

In Europe 46 countries need voter ID, now we do too, NI already had it of course.So how is that ‘Trumpian’ ?

In the run up to the 2020 presidential election the Republicans did their level best to exclude groups that they thought likely to vote Democrat by making it much more difficult for them to vote. It was blatant.
The tory requirement for voter ID to solve a nonexistent problem is on the same level. As I noted, Rees Mogg even admitted it was gerrymandering that had actually backfired on the tories.

What other countries do would only be relevant if we were looking at ways to solve an ongoing problem (which is why NI requires voter ID, there was a problem). There is no serious, or even minor, problem with voter personation in the rest of the UK.

The main problem with voter ID is that it was a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. There are very few cases of people trying to pose as someone else at polling stations and even if it were more widespread it wouldn’t make a lot of difference to the result. After all each person on the register can only vote once. Where the problem with voter fraud is known to exist is with postal votes but no-one wants to tackle that.

But why do we need it?

I remember asking the children whether if all their friends jumped off a cliff they would do the same. Saying that because others have them we should get them seems to need the same response.

In Europe 46 countries need voter ID, now we do too, NI already had it of course.So how is that ‘Trumpian’ ?

I'm another who is anti voter ID *Maisie. Very Trumpian.

Sorry about the y 😂

A free ID card seems a good idea to me, other countries have this after all. People without a passport or driving licence could show it as proof of who they are and all teenagers use it too. Why is it a bad thing? Just cos it hasn’t been introduced here before?y

Quite honestly I think you, and others who are accepting voter ID, are spectacularly missing the point about the removal of a right. One that has existed for fewer than 100 years and was removed unnecessarily.

I’m not missing the point at all. I wish some of the rights which are currently being eroded could be solved by a free ID card.

Currently you have the right to go from England to Scotland. Aright that has lasted for centuries. If Scotland joins the EU and you need a passport to go there, would you get a passport, or simply not go.

I don't approve of voter ID. As the staff at the polling stations have a list of people on the electoral roll, I don't know how the muli-voting that is claimed can happen would work, and it is obvious that it will disenfranchise people - the poor more than the rich.

I don't drive, and my passport has expired, however, and it is a pain not having ID sometimes. I will renew my passport when I get round to it, but I have no immediate plans to go abroad, and would prefer to leave it until I do. I managed to get a senior railcard using my expired passport, but it doesn't usually count as valid ID, even though it has my photo and DOB. I can't see why they couldn't last for 10 years or so after they expire - not to leave the country, but for more general ID purposes.

MaizieD
Demanding ID for voting is unnecessary and removes a right. It disenfranchises people.

Most things, even registering with a doctor or dentist or getting a bus pass, require ID.

Quite honestly I think you, and others who are accepting voter ID, are spectacularly missing the point about the removal of a right. One that has existed for fewer than 100 years and was removed unnecessarily.

Goodness, even Rees Mogg admitted it was deliberate gerrymandering.

Some of the people who can't be bothered to vote have been persuaded by The Sun, The Daily Mail, The Express, etc that "they're all the same so what's the point?"

This line has been put out whenever it seems impossible to persuade these readers to vote Conservative.

Unfortunately it does seem to work.

maddyone

There nothing wrong with voter ID in my opinion. If people can’t be bothered to get the free ID offered, they can’t be that bothered about voting.

Plenty of people can’t be bothered to vote anyway.