Lucy Letby found guilty.

They're!

I know many nurses who moved into hospital management. It happens. Their not all just managers. Lots of management training opportunities for NHS staff. Not a black and white situation.

That's it exactly Blondiescot. Of course bullying is nothing compared to this horrendous case. However, the person who was bullying me was well in with the bosses. I would never have been believed.

Casdon, can you please advise how you know these managers came from a medical background.

In recent years it has been spouted that you do not need to be from the same background to successfully manage an organisation. For instance, you may get someone from an IT background managing Construction etc. I disagree!!

Kate1949

Primrose 'Clearly set out' is all very well. It doesn't always give courage to speak out Look what happened when doctors spoke out in this case. I worked for 40 years for a large government organisation. The hierarchy can seem very intimidating. I was badly bullied there but as a low grade, I knew no one would listen to me or care.

I have a friend who was in a similar situation, also with a large government organisation. She tried to speak up in support of a colleague who was being bullied, and was basically threatened with losing her job if she did. She knew no-one higher up the ranks would believe her over the other woman (the one doing the bullying).

Kate1949

Primrose 'Clearly set out' is all very well. It doesn't always give courage to speak out Look what happened when doctors spoke out in this case. I worked for 40 years for a large government organisation. The hierarchy can seem very intimidating. I was badly bullied there but as a low grade, I knew no one would listen to me or care.

I do understand to an extent. My friend was bullied out of her job as a legal secretary with a firm of solicitors which they had already done to several other people.

All were accused of gross misconduct! I read all the letter they sent her and it was absolutely fictitious. They said she could immediately leave with pay and it wouldn’t go any further but she had to sign a non disclosure agreement.

She knew it was all just complete fabrication as they didn’t want to pay redundancy money but she said she stood no chance of challenging them with all their legal background. She was coming up to retirement so called it a day.

I know myself well though and if I worked in the health service and suspected someone of abuse or anything else I would report them. I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

Primrose 'Clearly set out' is all very well. It doesn't always give courage to speak out Look what happened when doctors spoke out in this case. I worked for 40 years for a large government organisation. The hierarchy can seem very intimidating. I was badly bullied there but as a low grade, I knew no one would listen to me or care.

MayBee70

It’s very suffocating being a much loved only child that is your parents universe. You also leave home as quite a selfish person as you’re not used to sharing with other people eg I would eat the last biscuits in a tin without thinking that other people in the house might have wanted one. It took me a while to learn to think of others. Maybe, even though she wanted to escape the suffocation of being an only child she still craved attention: perhaps the first death was an accident and she revelled in the attention it gave her? It made me think of The Sixth Commandment ( which is still fresh in my mind) and the fact that the murderer in that kept an incriminating journal. I would assume that all serial killers subconsciously want to be caught ie what’s the point in doing something if no one knows about it. I’ve been watching Extraordinary Portraits (my latest binge watch) and have been in tears at each portrait reveal, because it’s about NHS workers who are at the opposite end of the scale to Letby. It’s so wrong that NHS workers have been tainted by this woman.

what’s the point in doing something if no one knows about it

The murderer gets pleasure and a feeling of power? Not to say that they don’t want people to know about it as well.

LL spent a lot of time looking up the parents of her victims on social media. I imagine she got pleasure and a feeling of power from seeing their distress. Probably also from seeing people running round trying to save the babies.

Plus she got attention from the other staff. She had praise from them if the babies survived and sympathy if they didn’t.

Although I don’t think she was insane in the sense of being out of touch with reality, she surely must have had an unusual lack of empathy.

This is just speculation, but: I think I read that her life was saved by medical professionals as a newborn. Her parents were no doubt very grateful to them. If she had some resentment against her parents (perhaps because she felt they were suffocating), was this an indirect way to punish her parents, by hurting other parents in the situation they had been in? That could have been an unconscious motive rather than a conscious one.

I agree, fancythat. It's easy for some people to say that people should become whistleblowers, but I suspect it's a hell of a lot more difficult to actually be in that person's shoes. We have no idea what other stresses a person may be going through - they may be afraid that blowing the whistle, even anonymously, could lead to them losing their job, their home, their friends...

These managers are nurses and doctors themselves, don’t you think their remorse is huge for goodness sake

No they aren’t. The management tier is made up of managers not health professionals.
I don’t necessarily disagree about the remorse though.

But if things were to go further Primrose, some people dont like to rock the boat, that causes them stress. Some people do not like to upset anyone. Some dont like to "cause trouble". Some people certainly would not want to give a police statement, let alone get involved in a trial in any way.
Telling something "anonymously" would be but the first step. And even that is too costly for many.
They would become anxious, wouldnt be able to sleep etc etc.

Kate1949

Telling staff they must whistle blow without repercussions is living in fantasy land. Most are too scared.

Disagree. As far as I remember it was all set out clearly how staff could do this, anonymously.

There have been cases in recent years where cases have come to light purely because other staff blew the whistle. No murder, but either sexual misconduct, theft of hospital property or abuse of patients.

These managers are nurses and doctors themselves, don’t you think their remorse is huge for goodness sake?

No, I don't.
Having read though reports of their conversations with the consultants who raised concerns repeatedly, what is evident is their intention of protecting themselves, their departments and staff members against criticism that might damage their careers. These were not split-second decisions taken in a moment of crisis and later regretted, but measured decisions where the last thing considered is the welfare of the babies.

Their cliched apologies are insulting, just expressing sympathy for the bereaved families, no doubt constructed with legal advice; no expression of remorse about their lack of action or responsibility.

Aveline

I think that's pushing it. Her notes started ages ago. She's not that clever. Just screwed up in ways unimaginable to us.

She almost certainly is that clever. As Galaxy mentioned, she's seen notes made by people who are seriously ill. So have I and I expect Letby has too. It's not unknown for people to fake psychosis and other serious mental health conditions.

FWIW I have no psychiatric training and I don't know that she faked it, but I think it would be naive not to consider the possibility.

Even if she did start the notes "ages ago", she could have started planning the babies' murders ages ago (for all I know). In the end it doesn't matter because I expect she'll be given a life sentence. If there's no identifiable mental health condition, she'll be in a prison rather than a special hospital - that's the only difference.

Telling staff they must whistle blow without repercussions is living in fantasy land. Most are too scared.

Personality disorder. No easy answers. It would be better if there were but, unfortunately, we'll never know. Her life is lost now too. She'll be loathed by everyone she meets for the rest of her life - which may not be long.

The whole case raises questions about the nature and definition of sanity and what dictates this or otherwise. Plenty of children have suffocating childhoods to one degree or another but do not go on to become dangerous criminals.

The case of Letby is particularly strange as her apparent normality was commented on by everyone. Often such people do display some slightly strange behaviours that people notice. Or they have a strange look in the eyes - I now that is not a scientific observation, but I do remember when my OH was so ill for his last few years his eyes took on a very strange and rather creepy empty look, and I have observed this when working with people with dementia and mental illnesses - it is hard to define as it is almost an "absence."

So much of our behaviour is dictated by brain structure and function, which can be determined in utero or by life experiences. I know that a close relative of mine who has engaged in criminal behaviour (and had suffered damage in utero) has a strange and slightly vacant look about her - it is as if she is "not wired up right".

But this outwardly normal young woman, who was socially active and intelligent has undertaken these dreadful acts.

Or if not mentally ill is she just evil as some would have us believe? - and if that is the case then what is this, where does it come from?

Being in love, especially in the first flush, fulfils all the definitions of psychosis - maybe her infatuation with the doctor who would be called to these sick babies is at the root of this.

So sad all round. Those poor babies and their families - and her parents.

No doubt she will be sentenced to life imprisonment; but there is always the possibility of parole at some point. Would a parole board be fooled by her apparent normality I wonder?

In the absence of an identifiable mental illness there is no possibility of treatment or rehabilitation, so it is likely that incarceration is the only way forward in this sad situation.

Casdon These managers are nurses and doctors themselves, don’t you think their remorse is huge for goodness sake?

Not necessarily.
There is not just one Lucy Letby.
Not saying at all they are like that in the slightest, but I wouldnt be totally assuming anything.

Aveline

I think that's pushing it. Her notes started ages ago. She's not that clever. Just screwed up in ways unimaginable to us.

Why do you think she is not that clever?

growstuff

Galaxy

The notes are available on most mainstream news sites, they look like the writings of an extremely disturbed person.

Or somebody who knows enough about psychosis to give the impression she was seriously mentally ill.

I agree.
She may have faked things.
She is hardly a person to be trusted right now.

What can we do to protect and encourage genuine, Whistleblowers?

I pray for whistleblowers in general.
I know one. In education. Nothing of this scale I dont think.
The woman lost her hair and now wears a wig because of the stress she went through.

It’s typical of much of the society we live in, we reward failure.

Yes. That is how lots of things have gone/are going.

No lessons will be learned since they weren’t learnt after the Beverley Allitt case.
And the leaving packages those managers were given are beyond ridiculous and actually immoral.
It’s typical of much of the society we live in, we reward failure.

Some deaths could have been prevented if action was taken sooner. I hope facilitating this is one of the 'lessons learned' and 'changes made'.

Blossoming

I have followed the story about the deaths of the babies right from the beginning. It is heartbreaking and I do hope that “lessons have been learned” is not just an empty phrase. This must not be allowed to happen again.

After Nurse Beverley Allitt killed those other babies there was a massive enquiry and amongst many recommendations it was recorded by Virginia Bottomley that this must never happen again. In 2015 staff at all hospitals were told that they must whistleblow without fear of repercussions.

Didn’t work this time though because staff who reported Letby ended up being made to write and apologise to her!!

I am disgusted by those Managers some of whom have left with golden handshakes of over £million.