Should the President of the Spanish FA resign

It would appear these recent incidents are not the first. There are tales of misogyny, accusations of a financial nature and some of a sexual nature going back years.

Spain want to hold the 2030 World Cup. This international storm is not helping.

Btw I've been going to football, both before I had children and with my children, for decades, and have never seen a spectator grab his crotch in excitement. And I've never been embarrassed by a player adjusting himself on the pitch.

I’m still irritated that the news is focussed on a man with an inflated idea of his own importance rather than the fantastic women’s world cup

Several procedures are now underway, two tomorrow:

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66633123

As well as action within the Spanish Federation, some happening sooner rather than later)

"“Spanish sports minister Miquel Iceta told newspaper El Pais: "We are going to ask the TAD (Sport court) to meet on Monday. If the TAD accepts the government's complaint, we will immediately proceed with the suspension of the functions of president."

merlotgran

^I used to get stuck out on a wing, or in goal,^

😮😮 I used to play right wing and we considered ourselves to be the stars because everybody else just wombled about waiting for us to get it down the pitch and whack it into the centre. 😂😂

I think centre forward was the coveted position in our class, probably because she got the ball first, and the rest of us were rubbish anyway. We went through about 6 games teachers in just a few years, they kept leaving to get married, have babies etc,

I found the crotch grabbing quite unpleasant and unnecessary. A man in his position should be aware of his responsibility to the game he represents and react accordingly.

I used to get stuck out on a wing, or in goal,

😮😮 I used to play right wing and we considered ourselves to be the stars because everybody else just wombled about waiting for us to get it down the pitch and whack it into the centre. 😂😂

Dickens

Glorianny

On the subject of the kiss, it struck me that maybe we need to go back to Good Old British Values, stop all this hugging and kissing and reintroduce the handshake, which was all players got when they won, back in the old days!!!

... did you not get the quartered segments of an orange handed round on a plate to the players then - when the game was over!?
It was standard at my school... football, hockey, netball - all the players were handed this piece of fruit, and then held out their sticky hands for the handshake

I was never really into games, so never made a team. In hockey I used to get stuck out on a wing, or in goal, during games lessons and spent my time "wool gathering', so if the ball came anywhere near me I missed it!!!!

Would a swift apology be accepted here when posts claim it was a sexual assault?

Grantanow

Probably he will have to go. But I feel uncomfortable that one minor incident will end his extensive contribution.

He turned minor to major with his obstinacy.

A swift apology - like most intelligent people would make - and we'd all be talking about something else by now.

Probably he will have to go. But I feel uncomfortable that one minor incident will end his extensive contribution.

The questions being asked in the media at the moment are;

1. Has he/would he ever grasp a male player’s head and kiss him on the lips in a moment of excitement?

2. Why didn’t he just give an apology for his inappropriate behaviour, thus letting everyone know that he knew he shouldn’t have done it, and sending a message to others who might think of doing the same.
I’m still puzzled about his claim of the kiss being the way he’d kiss his daughters.
-He has no daughters, unless . . .
- Would your DH grasp your teen or adult daughters by the head and kiss them on the lips?

Glorianny

On the subject of the kiss, it struck me that maybe we need to go back to Good Old British Values, stop all this hugging and kissing and reintroduce the handshake, which was all players got when they won, back in the old days!!!

... did you not get the quartered segments of an orange handed round on a plate to the players then - when the game was over!?
It was standard at my school... football, hockey, netball - all the players were handed this piece of fruit, and then held out their sticky hands for the handshake

Dickens

Glorianny

Dickens

I don't think they have to do it. I do think they maybe should ignore it and stop being offended by it. The fines imposed on Simeone and Rinaldo show that if it is taken too far then it will be dealt with.

Glorianny

I'm going to stick my neck out here and put to you that crotch-grabbing makes women feel uncomfortable because they instinctively feel that it is a signal of male aggression and their sense of power and superiority, in essence. And that is why they are offended by it - not because they are prudish or emotionally immature - and therefore need to get-over-it which, to all intents and purposes, is what your recommendation implies.

I'm sure some footballers do it without much, if any, thought because it's become a cult thing among them. But women know through an innate instinct for self-preservation that gesture is, fundamentally, a threat. In the same way that they know when, for example, in a crowded tube train a man is deliberately and not accidentally pressing up against them. And all those other moments - and many of us have experienced them - when we are assured we are over-reacting to, for example, the arm around the shoulder which we are assured is just a 'friendly' gesture when it is, in fact, nothing of the kind - it is a man exerting his control and power over women, even if he doesn't recognise it himself, and we know the difference between the friendly arm round the shoulder and the one that isn't.

And that is the problem for women. If they re-act, they will be accused over an over-reaction. If they don't, they will later be accused of being compliant in their assault - because they didn't react. Crotch-grabbing is all part of the toxic masculinity cult which denies women agency over their own bodies - and that is why we should be 'offended' by the gesture.

That might be entirely true Dickens if it wasn't for the fact that all male sports do it when their are no women there. Certainly it may be an exhibition of male dominance but the idea that it is somehow directed at women doesn't hold water. It is for example seen in American football at NFL level where there are currently no women players at all, and it is seen in men's football here.
So the concept that it is somehow linked to assault and men controlling women really isn't proven. It may be so in other circumstances, but in competitive games like football it is simply a sign of team dominance or celebratory and not limited to the women's game.
Which is really why I raised the question. If it happens in men's games why shouldn't it happen at women's games.
What you are suggesting is that women should have a different set of rules applied to them because of your perception of crotch grabbing.What I am saying is that the same rules should apply if women are playing the same game, and a brief instance isn't a disciplinable offence, unlike the graphic gestures of Simeone and Rinaldo.

Well, I take your point(s) Glorianny however, I would argue that:

... even tho' all-male sports players do it in an all-male environment, it doesn't alter the symbolic 'message' inherent in the gesture - if you will, it's similar to alpha-male apes (and I don't mean the comparison in any derogatory way to men) beating their chests, competing for dominance. A 'willy-waving' show of power. To further the analogy, there may be no female apes at the time witnessing this display but, at some point, they will, and even though the alpha-male apes are not directing the gesture at them they - the females - will be well aware of the 'message', which is that the alpha-male ape is in control, of the group, and of them... it's in their genes as a species.

I don't think that when women are present these alpha-male sports players are necessarily directing the gesture at them in a 'get-a-load-of-this-then' sexual gesture, they are simply signalling their dominant status in the same way they do when women are not present.

It doesn't lessen the perceived threat to women because men are waving their willies at each other - women know that men are in control, regardless, and this 'beating of the chest' among themselves, is a reminder of the fact. We still live in a patriarchal society.

So, yes, in that respect I do think women should have a different set of rules... rules they decide for themselves. Maybe they'll decide to emulate the men and grab their own crotches in defiance - who knows? Or they might decide to bring a more 'sportsman'-like culture to the game, creating a completely different environment. Although football is a competitive game, it's still a game and what counts most is the skills of the players as individuals and as a team - rather than their egos.

Why should women have to follow the same cultural rules as men in football, as long as they adhere to the rules of the game itself?

Firstly thanks Dickens for taking the time to engage in a rational and (at least for me) interesting discussion.
I take your point about alpha males apes and the message they are sending. And the links between the gesture and the patriarchal society.
The problem I have is that having engaged in the sport and shown they can play as well as men do women then have to insist the regulations are changed to suit them? I wouldn't expect women players to engage in crotch grabbing or even something similar, my problem is with the regulation of the crowd or people like managers. Does one man grabbing his crotch constitute a real threat? And if CG was banned in the crowd at women's games how would such a rule be enforced?

On the subject of the kiss, it struck me that maybe we need to go back to Good Old British Values, stop all this hugging and kissing and reintroduce the handshake, which was all players got when they won, back in the old days!!!

Glorianny

Dickens

I don't think they have to do it. I do think they maybe should ignore it and stop being offended by it. The fines imposed on Simeone and Rinaldo show that if it is taken too far then it will be dealt with.

Glorianny

I'm going to stick my neck out here and put to you that crotch-grabbing makes women feel uncomfortable because they instinctively feel that it is a signal of male aggression and their sense of power and superiority, in essence. And that is why they are offended by it - not because they are prudish or emotionally immature - and therefore need to get-over-it which, to all intents and purposes, is what your recommendation implies.

I'm sure some footballers do it without much, if any, thought because it's become a cult thing among them. But women know through an innate instinct for self-preservation that gesture is, fundamentally, a threat. In the same way that they know when, for example, in a crowded tube train a man is deliberately and not accidentally pressing up against them. And all those other moments - and many of us have experienced them - when we are assured we are over-reacting to, for example, the arm around the shoulder which we are assured is just a 'friendly' gesture when it is, in fact, nothing of the kind - it is a man exerting his control and power over women, even if he doesn't recognise it himself, and we know the difference between the friendly arm round the shoulder and the one that isn't.

And that is the problem for women. If they re-act, they will be accused over an over-reaction. If they don't, they will later be accused of being compliant in their assault - because they didn't react. Crotch-grabbing is all part of the toxic masculinity cult which denies women agency over their own bodies - and that is why we should be 'offended' by the gesture.

That might be entirely true Dickens if it wasn't for the fact that all male sports do it when their are no women there. Certainly it may be an exhibition of male dominance but the idea that it is somehow directed at women doesn't hold water. It is for example seen in American football at NFL level where there are currently no women players at all, and it is seen in men's football here.
So the concept that it is somehow linked to assault and men controlling women really isn't proven. It may be so in other circumstances, but in competitive games like football it is simply a sign of team dominance or celebratory and not limited to the women's game.
Which is really why I raised the question. If it happens in men's games why shouldn't it happen at women's games.
What you are suggesting is that women should have a different set of rules applied to them because of your perception of crotch grabbing.What I am saying is that the same rules should apply if women are playing the same game, and a brief instance isn't a disciplinable offence, unlike the graphic gestures of Simeone and Rinaldo.

Well, I take your point(s) Glorianny however, I would argue that:

... even tho' all-male sports players do it in an all-male environment, it doesn't alter the symbolic 'message' inherent in the gesture - if you will, it's similar to alpha-male apes (and I don't mean the comparison in any derogatory way to men) beating their chests, competing for dominance. A 'willy-waving' show of power. To further the analogy, there may be no female apes at the time witnessing this display but, at some point, they will, and even though the alpha-male apes are not directing the gesture at them they - the females - will be well aware of the 'message', which is that the alpha-male ape is in control, of the group, and of them... it's in their genes as a species.

I don't think that when women are present these alpha-male sports players are necessarily directing the gesture at them in a 'get-a-load-of-this-then' sexual gesture, they are simply signalling their dominant status in the same way they do when women are not present.

It doesn't lessen the perceived threat to women because men are waving their willies at each other - women know that men are in control, regardless, and this 'beating of the chest' among themselves, is a reminder of the fact. We still live in a patriarchal society.

So, yes, in that respect I do think women should have a different set of rules... rules they decide for themselves. Maybe they'll decide to emulate the men and grab their own crotches in defiance - who knows? Or they might decide to bring a more 'sportsman'-like culture to the game, creating a completely different environment. Although football is a competitive game, it's still a game and what counts most is the skills of the players as individuals and as a team - rather than their egos.

Why should women have to follow the same cultural rules as men in football, as long as they adhere to the rules of the game itself?

Way to go Glorianny!
APU, IYO males are always the best. I guess you’d excuse whatever behaviour as being OK.
^ If it happens in men's games why shouldn't it happen at women's games.^

There are things some men do when with their mates that they wouldn’t dream of doing when with females.

There are some men who think their behaviour is acceptable regardless of who is there.
There are some men who forget themselves and do things that they realise they shouldn’t and make haste to apologise.

It shouldn’t be seen in any games -male or female.

I think Jennifer has got it right when she says the whole situation is about RESPECT or the lack of it. It also appears other things have been going on behind the scenes that players are unhappy about.

It hadn't occurred to me that the self crotch grabbing was worse in the presence of women, I just thought it deeply unpleasant behaviour full stop. Don't the parents of small boys teach them not to fiddle with their bits in public?

Dickens

^I don't think they have to do it. I do think they maybe should ignore it and stop being offended by it. The fines imposed on Simeone and Rinaldo show that if it is taken too far then it will be dealt with.^

Glorianny

I'm going to stick my neck out here and put to you that crotch-grabbing makes women feel uncomfortable because they instinctively feel that it is a signal of male aggression and their sense of power and superiority, in essence. And that is why they are offended by it - not because they are prudish or emotionally immature - and therefore need to get-over-it which, to all intents and purposes, is what your recommendation implies.

I'm sure some footballers do it without much, if any, thought because it's become a cult thing among them. But women know through an innate instinct for self-preservation that gesture is, fundamentally, a threat. In the same way that they know when, for example, in a crowded tube train a man is deliberately and not accidentally pressing up against them. And all those other moments - and many of us have experienced them - when we are assured we are over-reacting to, for example, the arm around the shoulder which we are assured is just a 'friendly' gesture when it is, in fact, nothing of the kind - it is a man exerting his control and power over women, even if he doesn't recognise it himself, and we know the difference between the friendly arm round the shoulder and the one that isn't.

And that is the problem for women. If they re-act, they will be accused over an over-reaction. If they don't, they will later be accused of being compliant in their assault - because they didn't react. Crotch-grabbing is all part of the toxic masculinity cult which denies women agency over their own bodies - and that is why we should be 'offended' by the gesture.

That might be entirely true Dickens if it wasn't for the fact that all male sports do it when their are no women there. Certainly it may be an exhibition of male dominance but the idea that it is somehow directed at women doesn't hold water. It is for example seen in American football at NFL level where there are currently no women players at all, and it is seen in men's football here.
So the concept that it is somehow linked to assault and men controlling women really isn't proven. It may be so in other circumstances, but in competitive games like football it is simply a sign of team dominance or celebratory and not limited to the women's game.
Which is really why I raised the question. If it happens in men's games why shouldn't it happen at women's games.
What you are suggesting is that women should have a different set of rules applied to them because of your perception of crotch grabbing.What I am saying is that the same rules should apply if women are playing the same game, and a brief instance isn't a disciplinable offence, unlike the graphic gestures of Simeone and Rinaldo.

Sparklefizz

^I didn't know crotch grabbing was deliberate; I thought it was the action of a man whose trousers, or jock strap, were too tight.^

I think of it on a par with a male gorilla beating his chest!

... although back in '82, Carole Pope (Rough Trade), decided to push the envelope on stage in Canada during a live performance.

Rough Trade co-founder Kevan Staples reflects: "So here we are on the JUNOs. We don't have a record contract. We're gonna be seen by all of Canada. We did the rehearsal in the afternoon and they were very specific about Carole not grabbing her crotch during the 'cream my jeans' line."

But, as Pope said, defiantly...

"We were just like, 'We're gonna push it and see how far we can go.' That was always us. Let's see how far we can go but kind of be cute and satirical about it at the same time."

Like, how avant-garde, how 'zany' - but I suppose if you can't beat them, join them (like).

I didn't know crotch grabbing was deliberate; I thought it was the action of a man whose trousers, or jock strap, were too tight.

I think of it on a par with a male gorilla beating his chest!

Dickens - another 👏👏👏👏 from me.

He should most definitely go now, after such a ridiculous display of temper.
In his position he should have been aware he had the means of defusing a silly situation by immediately offering a gracious apology along the lines of ', It was really never my intention to embarrass you; I am so sorry I upset you.'

I didn't know crotch grabbing was deliberate; I thought it was the action of a man whose trousers, or jock strap, were too tight.

Dickens An excellent summing up.

I see crotch grabbing as a lewd macho gesture.
Jasper Carrott (a long time ago) said men doing that are just checking they’re still there.
DGS suggested that he might have been checking that he hadn’t wet himself with excitement.
It’s time they stopped doing it in public! Imagine the uproar if women started caressing themselves in public.

So true Dickens I completely agree. I can’t understand why his behaviour is being excused. I saw the “crotch grabbing” when the team won and it was a real macho gesture, not just a “grab” at all. Also a forceful kiss…….come on, that is not acceptable. So often in these situations women are gaslighted.

Well said Dickens.