Should the President of the Spanish FA resign

I don't think they have to do it. I do think they maybe should ignore it and stop being offended by it. The fines imposed on Simeone and Rinaldo show that if it is taken too far then it will be dealt with.

Glorianny

I'm going to stick my neck out here and put to you that crotch-grabbing makes women feel uncomfortable because they instinctively feel that it is a signal of male aggression and their sense of power and superiority, in essence. And that is why they are offended by it - not because they are prudish or emotionally immature - and therefore need to get-over-it which, to all intents and purposes, is what your recommendation implies.

I'm sure some footballers do it without much, if any, thought because it's become a cult thing among them. But women know through an innate instinct for self-preservation that gesture is, fundamentally, a threat. In the same way that they know when, for example, in a crowded tube train a man is deliberately and not accidentally pressing up against them. And all those other moments - and many of us have experienced them - when we are assured we are over-reacting to, for example, the arm around the shoulder which we are assured is just a 'friendly' gesture when it is, in fact, nothing of the kind - it is a man exerting his control and power over women, even if he doesn't recognise it himself, and we know the difference between the friendly arm round the shoulder and the one that isn't.

And that is the problem for women. If they re-act, they will be accused over an over-reaction. If they don't, they will later be accused of being compliant in their assault - because they didn't react. Crotch-grabbing is all part of the toxic masculinity cult which denies women agency over their own bodies - and that is why we should be 'offended' by the gesture.

Rosie, Women’s football IS sadly showing some of the worst elements of the men’s game. Many season ticket holders of top men’s teams are getting special prices to watch their women’s team. Some of these supporters are rowdy and raucous - mainly male supporters might I add. Manchester United fans got upset that Manchester City had a women’s team at top flight and they didn’t so protested and the FA permitted Man U to enter a team at top flight.

Men’s Premier clubs are pumping money into their women’s teams and women’s teams associated with lower league men’s clubs or independent women’s teams are being pushed to the bottom as they run solely on volunteer help and not paid staff or paid players. Yes it’s great for women to be paid but the game is sadly gradually becoming more like the men’s as money predominates. Go and watch your local grass roots team and see the difference.

The FA are however concerned to kick out racism etc and to promote safeguarding at all levels of the game for junior and adult players. Safeguarding definitely rules out crotch clutching and grabbing someone and kissing them a smacker against their will. Quite frankly the latter is assault and battery which is a criminal offence.

Rosie51 - ⚽️👏

But I wonder if women are to be fully accepted and to play football at the same level as men, do they not then have to judge the gestures men make in exactly the same way.

I don't even understand this sentence. "if women are to be fully accepted", fully accepted by whom? The women do play to the same level as men, in fact there was an article that suggested because of the physical differences women are more tasked and are playing to a higher level. They play on the same size pitch for the same length of time, with the same size goal, and the same size and weight of ball. Add in football boots are designed for male feet and skeletal make up and the women are disadvantaged at every step.

The way women's football is played is relevant. The audiences for women's football do not sing offensive chants, abuse the players, nor display other toxic behaviours associated with the men's game. These audiences are reacting to the way the women's game is played, and the proportion of whole families in the audience is significantly higher than for the men's game. I hope this will continue and its increasing popularity won't introduce the seedier side of the game.
The way the winning teams have gone to sympathise and console the losers is truly heartening. This clip (not from the World Cup) shows the empathy women footballers can show to an opponent.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad5yqfRHMow

More and more significant figures in Spain are speaking out. (Bits on the BBC News) Major team managers in the male game etc, and bit international games coming up that Spain want to host.

Anniebach

Why should it start in other professions?

But I wonder if women are to be fully accepted and to play football at the same level as men, do they not then have to judge the gestures men make in exactly the same way

Crotch clutching as a gesture of triumph is not acceptable in any sphere and no woman should have to accept it as the norm.

Yes!

Why should it start in other professions?

If crotch clutching is to be considered acceptable when someone scores a goal or wins at football, then are we to accept it in other professions too? Eg, if a male member of staff signs a lucrative contract, announces a pay rise to the staff etc?

Or if a female member of staff wins a contract then should her male colleagues clutch their crutches in triumph or should they clap, shake her hand and say 'well done'.

Iam64

*but I wonder if women are to be fully accepted and t play football at the same level as men, do they not have to judge the gestures men make in exactly the same way*

So, you think women playing football have to accept crutch grabbing as a sign of having ‘a lot of balls’ Goltyanny? That if women are to insist on playing the men’s game, they should pretend to have balls and simulate grabbing them?

The consensus after the euros and this World Cup was of support and enjoyment about the way the women’s teams played. A more enjoyable, sports like game

I don't think they have to do it. I do think they maybe should ignore it and stop being offended by it. The fines imposed on Simeone and Rinaldo show that if it is taken too far then it will be dealt with.
There are lots of shots of footballers doing it briefly during a game. And one man doing it in the crowd has been taken as a sexual gesture towards the women's team. But then why is it done in men's games?
Just ignoring it is so much more powerful.
I don't see what the way the women's team played has to do with the issue.

but I wonder if women are to be fully accepted and t play football at the same level as men, do they not have to judge the gestures men make in exactly the same way

So, you think women playing football have to accept crutch grabbing as a sign of having ‘a lot of balls’ Goltyanny? That if women are to insist on playing the men’s game, they should pretend to have balls and simulate grabbing them?

The consensus after the euros and this World Cup was of support and enjoyment about the way the women’s teams played. A more enjoyable, sports like game

I am interested that the crotch grabbing incident is seen as so offensive. I don't know if it's because of the people he is standing near or what.
Crotch grabbing does seem to be part of male football. Although some have been fined huge amounts for doing it. Simeone and Rinaldo for example.
But I wonder if women are to be fully accepted and to play football at the same level as men, do they not then have to judge the gestures men make in exactly the same way.
CG done on the pitch to the other team or the crowd is finable, but should crotch grabbing in the crowd be?
talksport.com/football/497971/diego-simeone-hilarious-explanation-for-crotch-grabbing-celebration-atletico-madrid-juventus-champions-league/

I heard on the radio the day after the incident, that the player was only going to respond via her union. Awful for the Spanish team to have their success and good sporting behaviour overshadowed by a man with an inflated idea of his own importance

I totally agree iam64 I stayed silent on all three occasions
I didn’t want a fuss I didn’t want to get someone into trouble I didn’t want me to have trouble, I was embarrassed and in the third situation I kept thinking did I imagine it, did he really do that, was it an accident
Always doubting myself and never putting the blame firmly where it belongs

varian

Obviously he should go.

His crass actions gave robbed the Spanish people of the rightful celebration they were entitled to having won the WFA World cup.

This 👏👏👏

It is now all about him rather than the wonderful achievements of the Spanish Women's Football team.

Another angle on this is how badly it may have affected young boys if it went unchallenged.

His actions showed a clear message to many thousands of boys and young men that a womans body is there for male pleasure. "You want to kiss or touch her" "Just go ahead"

Children copy what they see.
am pleased that at least young boys and young girls will see the resulting upset and realise it was NOT ok and is NOT ok for a male to touch a female without permission.

Rosie - good post
My experience was 10 years ago. I stayed silent to avoid ruining a celebratory meal for friends

Quite frankly unless you've been in that exact situation, and I'm guessing none of us have won the women's world cup final, it's all theory as to what we'd have done. As a young woman, sure I was being groped on a crowded tube train, I desperately tried to manoeuvre myself away, but stayed silent. Fear of being thought wrong, people staring etc I kept quiet. If it happened today I'd not care about the embarrassment and would challenge the offender.

Obviously he should go.

His crass actions gave robbed the Spanish people of the rightful celebration they were entitled to having won the WFA World cup.

Jaberwok

If someone had done that to me unexpectedly,instinctively I would have pushed him away,also my facial expression would not be a smiling one! Can't help but feel that there is more to this that immediately meets the eye, but maybe not. It's a pity because it's taken the shine away from Spanish win.

It’s unfair imo to dismiss the statement from the player, she didn’t welcome this . Her team mates, our lionesses support her
It’s also easy to say what yiu/I would do in these circumstances
I posted earlier, my own experience of a forced mouth kiss and my lack of immediate response. I wanted to hit him round the head. I was surrounded by friends celebrating. I didn’t want to spoil things for others. Different but sadly similar

BlueBelle

Why are you looking for excuses for this man Glorianna it was unnecessary and all it needed was a humble (a lot of men don’t do humble) apology “ I am really sorry, in the heat of the moment and excitement I went a step too far” that was ALL that’s was needed but his over inflated ego and his self importance wouldn’t let him do that
As for the crotch clutching…. yuk

My friend who is 87 told me that once when she was a young teen an elderly uncle of hers at a family do grabbed her pulled her into a kiss and stuck his tongue in her mouth. She bit it. I doubt I d have been that quick thinking or dare to do it she said he never bothered her again 😂

...all it needed was a humble (a lot of men don’t do humble) apology “ I am really sorry, in the heat of the moment and excitement I went a step too far” that was ALL that’s was needed but his over inflated ego and his self importance wouldn’t let him do that

Exactly. One man and his ego have spoiled a great moment for women's football.

As for the crotch clutching…. yuk

It's prevalent among young males, especially in the music industry.

According to Wiki - the "crotch-grab" is a taunting gesture. In Italy it's a gesture with ancient roots.

If someone had done that to me unexpectedly,instinctively I would have pushed him away,also my facial expression would not be a smiling one! Can't help but feel that there is more to this that immediately meets the eye, but maybe not. It's a pity because it's taken the shine away from Spanish win.

I don’t understand how anyone, especially a woman, can defend this man. He grabbed his crotch - that’s overtly sexual behaviour. He then forced a lip kiss on a player. Her arms remained by her side- that isn’t the action of a woman enjoying a mutual kiss as he suggests. It’s the kind of frozen behaviour seen in women shocked by inappropriate unwelcome behaviour.
I bet he wouldn’t have done the same to a male player

Women have worked so hard since 1972, when the were once more ‘allowed’ to play the beautiful game. The World Cup, like the euros was so enjoyable for those of us who enjoy football. The actions of this dreadful man and those who support him are distracting from the Spanish women’s team and their achievements

It's been reported that Rubiales insists she agreed to a "little peck", and she agreed.

If that is true, then hardly surprising she agreed... pecks on the cheek and brief hugs are commonplace in sport between men and men, women and women, and both on each other.

Anniebach

She had both arms free but no attempt to push him away

A question Annieback - in her position, with millions of people watching - would you have pushed him away - turning the moments of triumph into a confrontation knowing that the eyes of the world were on you? Be honest here.

And, if she had done that - how do you think it would've played out?

My bet is the same individuals who are now defending him would've turned on her for spoiling the moment and 'over-reacting'. That's the view of my OH with whom I had an interesting discussion on this subject. He told me he really dislikes it when some of our female acquaintances - innocently enough he acknowledges - grab his shoulders briefly for the 'mwaw, mwaw' peck on the cheek. I didn't even know this because he's never mentioned it so I asked him why he recoiled. He couldn't really explain it but said he didn't like people he didn't know very well being over-familiar because it made him feel "uncomfortable". As he's disabled, he can't manoeuvre himself out of the way easily, and he feels trapped.

If a laid-back, liberal-minded male Swede can 'get it'...

Women simply cannot win, can they? They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The answer is so simple, men shouldn't touch women intimately unless specifically invited. Putting your mouth on someone else's mouth is intimate.

And Rubiales should consult a dictionary to understand the meaning of "peck" if that is indeed what he said.

Hmmmm….