What is left about Labour now?

Labour spending millions court case in 2024 during coming election against Labour leakers report about those staffers who tried to loose election including with their disgusting WhatsApp messages and their disappointment when Labour almost won in 2017 saying this goes against all that I've been working towards these two years. I think it was just that those people who were plotting against a Corbyn win came to light Now people saw that their membership money was wasted on the paid staffers and their vile behaviour should have be brought out into the open for all to see.

^ But the nearer you get to no mixed economy and authoritarianism the less the centre will support you.^

Which makes it so very weird that people vote for the right. Do they actually like authoritarianism and no mixed economy?

MayBee70

I think left wing policies are what make an ideal, caring society but then you have to move to the right till it gets to the point where it’s acceptable enough for the majority of people to vote for it. But we need people from the left of the party to be the Jiminy Crickets of the political world.

Noooo. Obviously, if you are a Labour Party member, you get to chose. But the nearer you get to no mixed economy and authoritarianism the less the centre will support you.

Grany

Then why use the term far left hard left of those who only want sensible polices nationalisation and taxing the richest, you call yourself moderate. You could call us socialists instead as Mick Linch said Starmer should say socialists he never says it.

Starmer has called himself a socialist Grany, but not, I think, in the last year or so. Howver, it is one of the doubts I have about voting to enable Labour. That and the extremists on the far left of the party, who lean towards authouritarianism.

Blair called himself a democratic socialist. I have to admit a little bit of democracy goes a long way in my book.

but then you have to move to the right till it gets to the point where it’s acceptable enough for the majority of people to vote for it.

The real irony, I think, MayBee, is that when polled, the majority of people have views which reflect the 'left' rather than the 'right'. But they still vote for the right..

There's clearly something else that stops them voting for the left.

I think left wing policies are what make an ideal, caring society but then you have to move to the right till it gets to the point where it’s acceptable enough for the majority of people to vote for it. But we need people from the left of the party to be the Jiminy Crickets of the political world.

Damn. I spent ages composing a post about what I considered to be 'extreme' or 'hard' left and accidently deleted it!

So, very briefly, I associate hard or extreme left with the practice of the ideology devised by communist philosophers/thinkers. Many of the actual principles were absolutely fine, but they took no account of individuals and the leaders of the revolutions which enabled them had very little real idea of how to implement putting them into practice. They ended up resorting to the methods of dictators every where with severe repression of anyone who deviated from the beliefs they imposed on the population. Violent, cruel and inhumane repression.

I don't actually believe that most left wingers in the UK would actually want a revolution, nor would they want non consensual imposition of their beliefs. So I don't see them as a danger or anything to be feared.

I do, however, feel, like Casdon, that change is better implemented incrementally.

Though what seems like a small change to some people can seem like a Revolution to others...

I would observe that revolutions are usually achieved by charismatic demagogues stirring up a large part of the populace. Once they've succeeded in overthrowing the previous regime they really don't have much of a plan for what is to happen next, and discover that it's more difficult to get 'the people' to co-operate when they're not in a state of high emotion whipped up by their demagogic rhetoric. That's when the repression begins...

I have to say that this cycle bears a strong resemblance to our very own Brexit revolution...

Is this the Mick Lynch who advised people to vote for Brexit?

Then why use the term far left hard left of those who only want sensible polices nationalisation and taxing the richest, you call yourself moderate. You could call us socialists instead as Mick Linch said Starmer should say socialists he never says it.

Glorianny

I don't think the people who use the term "far left" have any real concept of what it means. They just use it to show they regard themselves as superior.

Yes, I’d agree that that statement perfectly sums up your view Glorianny.

Ok Annie

Information from Open Democracy says Reynolds shadow business secretary was talking about the tax increase right up until he took a £3,377 package for two to attend Glastonbury as a guest of YouTube, which is owned by Google. The day after, reports emerged that he had ditched the plan.

I didn’t know about the freebies, please name the Shadow Ministers who accepted please Grany

But the way you and another say hard left makes it sound as if we are asking for the moon instead of only basic good sense socialist polices some countries have adopted years ago. What we are asking for is not radical, or hard left whatever that means.
It’s the polices many people want.

• 15 August 2022: Labour promise a 10% digital services tax.

• 26 June 2023: Labour scrap their promise of a 10% digital services tax.

In between, Labour Shadow Ministers accepted £16,000 in freebies from digital services companies.

Next day after receiving freebies dropped digital service tax.

Labour needs to stick to their supposed green deal too.

I don't think the people who use the term "far left" have any real concept of what it means. They just use it to show they regard themselves as superior.

I think they’re all meant as insults Casdon and therefore not very helpful. I don’t pretend to be innocent, I have certainly referred to ‘Tory lite’ at times.

I think ‘far left’ equates to socialist. But then we all have a different definition of that as well. It can be used as an insult or a badge of honour, depending where you sit. I just don’t think ‘far left’ would ever be used as a badge of honour. Maybe others disagree.

Casdon

You always parry with questions rather than answers Glorianny, so for the sake of us who don’t remember your previous posts, tell us what you think the ‘far left’ stand for? I’ve already explained what it means to me.

You've posted a lot of rhetoric about beliefs and ideas but no real policies. I've posted the policies I believe in so why not post yours?
As far as I'm concerned you may call them far left or whatever you want.

nightowl

I don’t think it’s very helpful to look for a definition of ‘far left’ because we all know it’s meant as an insult to those who would never in fact use that term when describing themselves or anyone else.

I think it is very helpful myself to understand where people are coming from, I don’t see ‘far left’ as an insult, but as a description of the way people see the political environment they think would work nightowl. Is there a difference in description between ‘far left’ and ‘closet Tories’ which is what those on the left call the more moderate Labour supporters?

I don’t think it’s very helpful to look for a definition of ‘far left’ because we all know it’s meant as an insult to those who would never in fact use that term when describing themselves or anyone else.

MayBee70

Glorianny

MayBee70

Just remind me how many seats Corbyn lost at the last election?

Why on earth do you insist on bringing Corbyn into this? The man has gone. He isn't even a Labour MP now, although that could pose problems if he decides to stand as an independent because he has always been regarded as a good constituency MP.
Just because Corbyn didn't win it is no indication that Starmer will. His personal popularity is very low.

Here's the latest summary of the polls showing voter intention. Both the LP and the Tories have gained support in 6 of the polls. www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voting-intention-opinion-poll-scorecard/
Which may be nice for the LP, but you have to wonder who on earth has returned to voting for this shambles of a government, and will people continue to do so?

We just need to remember what the electorate do when they’re offered a socialist government.

Lots of people voted in 2017/19 and wanted a socialist government It was the idiots who actively worked against a labour victory that lost it gave us tories and are now in Starmer’s ‘opposition’ party.

Casdon
Your post @ 10.25 summed it up completely.

Glorianny

MayBee70

Just remind me how many seats Corbyn lost at the last election?

Why on earth do you insist on bringing Corbyn into this? The man has gone. He isn't even a Labour MP now, although that could pose problems if he decides to stand as an independent because he has always been regarded as a good constituency MP.
Just because Corbyn didn't win it is no indication that Starmer will. His personal popularity is very low.

Here's the latest summary of the polls showing voter intention. Both the LP and the Tories have gained support in 6 of the polls. www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voting-intention-opinion-poll-scorecard/
Which may be nice for the LP, but you have to wonder who on earth has returned to voting for this shambles of a government, and will people continue to do so?

We just need to remember what the electorate do when they’re offered a socialist government.

You always parry with questions rather than answers Glorianny, so for the sake of us who don’t remember your previous posts, tell us what you think the ‘far left’ stand for? I’ve already explained what it means to me.

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

MaizieD

Grantanow

Attlee's government was not Far Left. He declined to abolish the public schools having been at Haileybury himself and stopped short of nationalising industries that were not specified in the manifesto. The initiative for the NHS did not originate with Attlee but from Beverage and the other major reform, free secondary education, originated with Butler in the National government. Labour introduced bread rationing after WW2 and maintained an austerity policy for several years.

Well, TBH, Grantanow, we've never managed to extract a definition of 'far left' from those who use the term. So one can only guess at how they would define that Attlee government. I just used it in a speculative fashion.

It's difficult to discuss politics without a shared understanding of how terms are used.

To me the far left are perhaps better described as the radical left. They are idealists and purists, not realists or pragmatists, and believe that the pursuit of a socialist agenda can only be achieved through radical policy making, not through an incremental approach. To achieve the ultimate aim of an equal society they disregard the impact on individuals in pursuit of equality. That’s my personal take on it though, I haven’t used somebody else’s words.
I’d be interested to see how other people interpret this too. Do you want to start by giving us yours?

"an incremental approach"
Isn't that the trickle-down policy we have seen for the last 13 years? Look how successful that's been
"The rich get rich and the poor get poorer"

So is it far left to think that the bedroom tax should be abolished?
That the third child restriction should be lifted?

Rather than attempt to deflect or distract again, or critique somebody else’s views Glorianny why not say what you think the ‘far left’ stand for, as MaizieD asked?

I've posted myviews many times Casdon I don't consider them far left I consider them true to the LP aims. You and others are the people who consider me far left, so explain it to me, because be blowed if I understand.
I've asked many times but I will try again

Is asking that water, energy and trains are publicly owned far left?
Is wanting the bedroom tax abolished far left?
Is wanting privatisation of the NHS stopped far left?
Is wanting the third child legislation abolished far left?
Is wanting proper protection for employees and zero hours contracts abolished far left?
I don't think any of these things are. I think they are basic Labour policies, but I don't think Starmer does.

Casdon

That’s an odd source to use Glorianny, Mark Pack is the President of the Liberal Democrats. I prefer the Sky Polltracker, which summarises all the legitimate polls conducted, and maintains a running voting intentions graph. You can download the app from Sky News.

It's a simple summing up of the polls listed with the name of the poll and the results. What's odd about that? I don't want an app thanks.

Glorianny

Casdon

MaizieD

Grantanow

Attlee's government was not Far Left. He declined to abolish the public schools having been at Haileybury himself and stopped short of nationalising industries that were not specified in the manifesto. The initiative for the NHS did not originate with Attlee but from Beverage and the other major reform, free secondary education, originated with Butler in the National government. Labour introduced bread rationing after WW2 and maintained an austerity policy for several years.

Well, TBH, Grantanow, we've never managed to extract a definition of 'far left' from those who use the term. So one can only guess at how they would define that Attlee government. I just used it in a speculative fashion.

It's difficult to discuss politics without a shared understanding of how terms are used.

To me the far left are perhaps better described as the radical left. They are idealists and purists, not realists or pragmatists, and believe that the pursuit of a socialist agenda can only be achieved through radical policy making, not through an incremental approach. To achieve the ultimate aim of an equal society they disregard the impact on individuals in pursuit of equality. That’s my personal take on it though, I haven’t used somebody else’s words.
I’d be interested to see how other people interpret this too. Do you want to start by giving us yours?

"an incremental approach"
Isn't that the trickle-down policy we have seen for the last 13 years? Look how successful that's been
"The rich get rich and the poor get poorer"

So is it far left to think that the bedroom tax should be abolished?
That the third child restriction should be lifted?

Rather than attempt to deflect or distract again, or critique somebody else’s views Glorianny why not say what you think the ‘far left’ stand for, as MaizieD asked?