More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

I believe there are joint 'Site managers' as they are called here, for clusters of smaller schools.
The Trustees of Academies have responsibility for financial affairs, or so I believe; the Head responsibility for the day to day running of the school, hence the ambiguity of who does what, and when. The Trust responsible for our local school is based about 100 miles away.

ImogenMac

I have clearly stated that the responsibility of building maintenance and repair lies with Local Authorities or Metropolitan Boroughs.

I have also given an idea of some of the tasks and responsibilities of a Caretaker/Premises Manager, none of which has included any buildings repair or surveying.

No school, however small , is allowed by the Local Authority or Metropolitan borough to operate without a designated Caretaker/ Premises Manager.

There would be extremely serious consequences if they did.

That is not to take away at all from the huge, if not impossible, jobs of Heads and Staff to manage with all the increase of demands on them while resources are continually cut and buildings fall into disrepair or worse.

WWMk2 sums it up perfectly.

I'm sorry you are completely wrong no small school can afford the services of a caretaker these days. Could you post a link or some information about the particular legislation which you say puts any requirement to employ anyone in the role you describe?
As I said mostly the Head and senior staff take on the responsibility for the maintenance and upkeep of the building, often with help from the Governing body.

And do we believe that only publicly owned buildings will be at risk? I suspect that there will be residential developments at risk too, though nobody is suggesting this. What appeared to be a lightweight but useful material has proved to have a short life which nobody suspected, though building surveyors have apparently been warning about the risk since the turn of the century. It is very alarming.

I should add the same goes for teachers too.

It’s a terrible situation for children and parents, especially those in affected areas and a shocking worry to them.
Many children have really suffered, from toddlers getting late starts due to Covid to exam results fiascos.
I’m constantly genuinely amazed that youngsters cope so well in schools and am constantly annoyed that they have to.

I get cross because haven't children already suffered enough with their education?

DGD's old school in Essex is also on the list.
She now lives in Devon, (where miraculously there are none!), but her little friend who is holidaying here from Essex only found out last night.

Joseann

It does seem strange that Essex should have so many where other areas don't.
DH thinks they are more on the ball!

One school is very close to me, they are prioritising which years will be in the building. It has a sixth form, at the moment it looks like years 7 & 11 will be attending school whilst they make arrangements for the other years.

I did notice that we seem to have rather a lot of Essex schools on the list.

It does seem strange that Essex should have so many where other areas don't.
DH thinks they are more on the ball!

growstuff

Casdon

I’ve just noticed from reading the news reports that of the schools which have been named, 25 of them are in Essex. I’d guess that means that Essex LA are ahead of the game in surveying and naming the schools in their area that are affected, rather than that they have a disproportionate number of schools with the issue. That’s worrying if those numbers are replicated across the UK.

I don't know about that.

I worked for the majority of my career in one of the schools which has been particularly badly affected. It was due for a rebuild, which has been delayed for years.

When I worked there, a huge horizontal crack appeared one day while I was teaching. There was a deafening noise. I immediately evacuated the pupils and called for management. I was told a couple of hours later that the classroom was safe and eventually somebody appeared with some Polyfilla (not kidding). Over the next few months more cracks appeared, which I was told were just superficial. Maybe they were!

I wonder if, having had a major issue with a school they commissioned more detailed/comprehensive surveys of the estate of all schools, whereas other LAs haven’t done so much work? I just think it would be really odd for one LA area to have such a disproportionate number of affected schools, maybe I’m wrong though, I hope so.

All schools, including Academies and Independent schools are required to adhere to certain legal responsibilities , much of which applies to this thread and indeed all schools.

ImogenMac

Generally Academies have Trusts which are responsible:under the terms and conditions that they were established.

So local authorities and councils aren't responsible, as you claimed?

Casdon

I’ve just noticed from reading the news reports that of the schools which have been named, 25 of them are in Essex. I’d guess that means that Essex LA are ahead of the game in surveying and naming the schools in their area that are affected, rather than that they have a disproportionate number of schools with the issue. That’s worrying if those numbers are replicated across the UK.

I don't know about that.

I worked for the majority of my career in one of the schools which has been particularly badly affected. It was due for a rebuild, which has been delayed for years.

When I worked there, a huge horizontal crack appeared one day while I was teaching. There was a deafening noise. I immediately evacuated the pupils and called for management. I was told a couple of hours later that the classroom was safe and eventually somebody appeared with some Polyfilla (not kidding). Over the next few months more cracks appeared, which I was told were just superficial. Maybe they were!

Callistemon21

Casdon

paddyann54

CASDON and that may be the case but the programme of new and refurbished schools here show a willingness to deal with a problem and NOT just announce a new initiative that never happens as does with your government .
Similar to our affordable homes.over 120 thousand new homes in the same timescale ,over 70% of them not just affordable but social or as we call them COUNCIL houses.Thats because we have a government which is delivering on manifesto pledges and councils who dont USE their housing budget have it taken off them and given to councils who do build the right houses ....for people who need them.My area has hundreds of lovely new homes scattered across it .Dont believe the media spin about Scotland suffering under devolution ,nothing could be further from the truth

What do you mean my government paddyann54, I’m in Wales, we have our own government dealing with education, exactly as happens in Scotland?
The difference between us is that I’m realistic about the certainty that despite the new schools built, maintenance and best efforts of our respective governments, that it’s inevitable that we will have buildings with were built with this concrete, much of which our governments don’t even know about yet. The Department of Education didn’t have the courtesy to inform the Welsh Government that they were making the decision to close the affected schools there before they actually announced it.

Are any schools closing in Wales?

Infrastructure is devolved, too, I believe.

I don’t know much, I’ve been out today and driving home I heard somebody from Welsh Government being interviewed on the radio, he said they didn’t have a prior warning of the announcement by the DoE, and that they were working over this weekend in Welsh government to collate, and would then confirm if any schools needed to close here in light of what they assumed was new evidence that had led the Department of Education announcement. He also said that other public buildings would be required to undergo assessments (hospitals, universities, colleges were mentioned). Apparently there is no register anywhere of which buildings might be affected, as builders were not required to submit information about materials used (UK wide).

I’ve just noticed from reading the news reports that of the schools which have been named, 25 of them are in Essex. I’d guess that means that Essex LA are ahead of the game in surveying and naming the schools in their area that are affected, rather than that they have a disproportionate number of schools with the issue. That’s worrying if those numbers are replicated across the UK.

Casdon

paddyann54

CASDON and that may be the case but the programme of new and refurbished schools here show a willingness to deal with a problem and NOT just announce a new initiative that never happens as does with your government .
Similar to our affordable homes.over 120 thousand new homes in the same timescale ,over 70% of them not just affordable but social or as we call them COUNCIL houses.Thats because we have a government which is delivering on manifesto pledges and councils who dont USE their housing budget have it taken off them and given to councils who do build the right houses ....for people who need them.My area has hundreds of lovely new homes scattered across it .Dont believe the media spin about Scotland suffering under devolution ,nothing could be further from the truth

What do you mean my government paddyann54, I’m in Wales, we have our own government dealing with education, exactly as happens in Scotland?
The difference between us is that I’m realistic about the certainty that despite the new schools built, maintenance and best efforts of our respective governments, that it’s inevitable that we will have buildings with were built with this concrete, much of which our governments don’t even know about yet. The Department of Education didn’t have the courtesy to inform the Welsh Government that they were making the decision to close the affected schools there before they actually announced it.

Are any schools closing in Wales?

Infrastructure is devolved, too, I believe.

paddyann54

CASDON and that may be the case but the programme of new and refurbished schools here show a willingness to deal with a problem and NOT just announce a new initiative that never happens as does with your government .
Similar to our affordable homes.over 120 thousand new homes in the same timescale ,over 70% of them not just affordable but social or as we call them COUNCIL houses.Thats because we have a government which is delivering on manifesto pledges and councils who dont USE their housing budget have it taken off them and given to councils who do build the right houses ....for people who need them.My area has hundreds of lovely new homes scattered across it .Dont believe the media spin about Scotland suffering under devolution ,nothing could be further from the truth

What do you mean my government paddyann54, I’m in Wales, we have our own government dealing with education, exactly as happens in Scotland?
The difference between us is that I’m realistic about the certainty that despite the new schools built, maintenance and best efforts of our respective governments, that it’s inevitable that we will have buildings with were built with this concrete, much of which our governments don’t even know about yet. The Department of Education didn’t have the courtesy to inform the Welsh Government that they were making the decision to close the affected schools there before they actually announced it.

So the government has known since 2018 that there was a potential and serious issue.

My goodness the people using the buildings were lucky. In some cases they may have got away with their lives.

How long have we got until we get rid of this shower?

Generally Academies have Trusts which are responsible:under the terms and conditions that they were established.

What about academies?

I have clearly stated that the responsibility of building maintenance and repair lies with Local Authorities or Metropolitan Boroughs.

I have also given an idea of some of the tasks and responsibilities of a Caretaker/Premises Manager, none of which has included any buildings repair or surveying.

No school, however small , is allowed by the Local Authority or Metropolitan borough to operate without a designated Caretaker/ Premises Manager.

There would be extremely serious consequences if they did.

That is not to take away at all from the huge, if not impossible, jobs of Heads and Staff to manage with all the increase of demands on them while resources are continually cut and buildings fall into disrepair or worse.

WWMk2 sums it up perfectly.

They are guilty of neglect because they failed to act on the information made available to them.
Yes, that is what is unforgiveable

I think you're right Glorianny. A number of the schools shutting down is a precautionary measure while they carry out investigations. I assume they already knew the crumbly ones were faulty, but now they have to check them all.

Not sure but isn't the reason for the sudden shutting down of schools because it was previously thought that the concrete always showed signs of failure before collapsing, but some which looked OK has just collapsed?

But they weren't 'substandard' at the time they were used. They became substandard at the end of their projected 'lives'

Yes. They are guilty of neglect because they failed to act on the information made available to them.

But would proper maintenance have made a difference? If building materials only have a short life-span why did they use them for buildings which were not meant to be temporary?